Nicole Begley (00:00)
In today's episode, I am chatting with my good friend, Shelley Paulson, and we are talking about what is better for building a business, having a craft forward focused attention or a business forward focused attention. Well, stay tuned and find out.

Nicole Begley (00:14)
I'm Nicole Begley, a zoological animal trainer turned pet and family photographer. Back in 2010, I embarked on my own adventure in photography, transforming a bootstrapping startup into a thriving six-figure business by 2012. Since then, my mission has been to empower photographers like you, sharing the knowledge and strategies that have helped me help thousands of photographers build their own profitable businesses. I believe that achieving $2,000 to $3,000 sales is your fastest route to six-figure businesses;

that any technically proficient photographer can consistently hit four figure sales. And no matter if you want photography to be your full-time passion or a part-time pursuit, profitability is possible. If you're a portrait photographer aspiring to craft a business that aligns perfectly with the life you envision, then you're in exactly the right place. With over 350,000 downloads, welcome to the Freedom Focus Photography Podcast.

Nicole (01:13)
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Freedom Focus Photography Podcast. I'm your host Nicole Begley. And today I have a returning guest. One of my favorite people, Shelley Paulson from Shelley Paulson photography up in the very cold state of Minnesota. Hey Shelley.

Shelley (01:27)
Hey, I'm actually, yeah, I'm pretty freezing lately. It's been like wind chills in the minus double digits a little bit. And yeah, it's just cold. And I have to be in the barn a lot because I'm keeping a horse fed that can't eat any forage. So I'm just like, brr, why do I live here? Why do I live where my face hurts?

Nicole (01:37)
Yeah.

I know, I know I feel that pain. Although you get to create beautiful snow images all the time. And yeah, we don't.

Shelley (01:52)
It's true. Last winter we barely had any snow, so that was a huge disappointment. this year is looking like it's going to be like normal Minnesota winter and I'll get out and, you know, enjoy the snow in small bits.

Nicole (01:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Nice. Nice. is funny. I, you guys know, if you're on my email list, I just got back from Finland and we love to be winter tourists. I don't want to live there, but I love to be a winter tourist. And when you're there, like we bundle up, we go out, we do all the things and like the cold is nothing like whatever we're out there. And then I get home and it's 45 and I'm like, it's too cold to walk the dog. How, why?

Shelley (02:30)
I guess that's the power of mindset, right?

Nicole (02:33)
I guess, yeah. So I'm going to shift that. We're actually going to go for a walk after, although it's sunny and 55 today. So it's lovely.

Shelley (02:38)
Yeah, that's, like, we're gonna be 40 on Sunday. And I'm just like, I'm storing all the outdoor things I need to do. Like my tack room is just chaos. Cause I'm like, I'll deal with it Sunday. I'll deal with it Sunday. It's a, you know, above freezing. Yay.

Nicole (02:43)
Yeah.

Ha ha!

my gosh. know. And then by the time spring comes, when you have like a 35, 40 degree day, you're like t-shirts, but then the first beginning of the winter, it's so cold. my goodness. anyway, we're not talking about the weather here, even though it has been chilly and I am going to horse show this weekend and Friday night, the lowest 19, I'm going to Camden, South Carolina and the lowest 19. like, that's, that's no. So, yeah.

Shelley (03:00)
I know, totally.

You

Ooh.

That's cool for anyone at a horse show, like no joke, yeah.

Nicole (03:20)
Yeah. Thankfully we don't go first thing in the morning. So it'll hopefully warm up to like a balmy 35. but anyway, anyway, we wanted to chat today because you sent me a Voxer after a recent podcast. You're like, Hey, I have an idea. Let's have a friendly debate. And I'm like, Ooh, yes, I am here for that because we both subscribe to a slightly different mindset of, of building your business.

Shelley (03:25)
Okay.

Nicole (03:45)
of we're calling it the business first mindset or the craft first mindset. And you guys know, if you listen to my podcast, I have a business first mindset kind of person again, not saying the craft's not important. Don't mishear me. but that that's like my first focus where you have a little bit of a different outlook on that. so yeah, tell us just a little bit about that and, and how that came to be.

Shelley (04:06)
Well I think the short of it is I built my business. Like I've been in business for over 20 years and mine was built on craft. I wouldn't even say I'm like quote unquote great at business. I am a like heartfelt, like heart-driven business owner. I have spent many years pricing based on what feels right and I'm like so the opposite.

Nicole (04:16)
Yeah.

Shelley (04:33)
of you guys at times that I'm like, okay, I probably need to get it together. But I've actually been able to run a really successful, profitable, multi six figure, you know, type business, even though I'm not quote unquote business first, or I'm not, I don't consider myself like a business guru, like I consider you a business guru. But what I have done from the very beginning is really focus on being

technically, creatively, you know, all those things, the best I can possibly be with that camera in my hands. And so I want to create the best images. I want to find that great light. And I've studied composition. And honestly, it really goes back to my wedding photography days because wedding photography at the time was really my bread and butter before like, I don't know, 2015. And I...

Nicole (05:21)
One and a half.

Shelley (05:26)
like wanted to make a living at this, mainly weddings. And you can't just be kind of like formulaic, just go through the motions, know, pretty this, pretty that. And I went toward the like storytelling and getting in there and creating wild compositions and really customizing each wedding shoot to that couple. I mean, it was my work, but I really got in there and like, there was no formula to what I was doing. You know, I'm very much a non-formula person.

Nicole (05:52)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (05:55)
And when I brought that then into the equine, when everybody was just kind of doing, okay, we do this pose and we do this pose and we do this pose, my work really stood out, which allowed me to charge more, which allowed me to get hired by brands and become a commercial photographer. And it wasn't because I was great at marketing. It wasn't because I was great at business. It was because I had some of the best imagery in the industry.

Nicole (06:23)
I love that. That does beg the question though, because I think one of the challenges of people when they're creating is you can have the most beautiful work on the planet, but if you're not sharing it, it's not going to be seen. So what kinds of things were you doing to get your, your images out there and have it be seen by people to be attracting them to your business?

Shelley (06:45)
Ooh, that's a really good question. Let's start with portraits because that's probably the most applicable to your listeners. Before social media, yeah, I'm that old. Probably my biggest source of clients was partnering with a local high-end tech shop. And I had my work hanging, like they had kind of a gap between their racks and their ceiling. And I had...

Nicole (07:06)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (07:12)
standouts and canvases all around. And then I had a photo album by the dressing room. So when someone's waiting for, you know, their friend to try on breaches, you know, they open it up and thumb through it. And that was a source of a lot of my business. Before, you know, it, before social media hit and it wasn't, I didn't really have much of an equine photography business in the early years as a photographer, because really the people that

There wasn't as much demand for photography. First of all, was mostly if you want senior photos with your horse. And they would hire their show photographer because the show photographer was the horse photographer they knew. And I wasn't interested in standing in a dusty arena for eight hours a day taking the same photo over and over again, because I'm just kind of this artistic type and that just sounded super boring to me. And so that's why I did the weddings. was really like the weddings were the main thing and then the horses were the small thing.

Nicole (07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (08:09)
But then when social media came, I was on board with that pretty fast and, know, early adopter of Facebook, early adopter of Instagram. and then that's when, that's when really the, my equine portrait business blew up was because people were then starting to share my work and, then I could really get some traction with my business. And of course, those are the early days without algorithms and, you know, quote unquote saturated market, but it was also.

know, days where there wasn't as much demand. And so really, like, I still believe in that brick and mortar partnership. If I was doing portraits today, I'd be doing a lot to still try and partner with local tax shops and connect with other vendors and collaborate with like minded business equine businesses. but then from from a commercial standpoint,

Nicole (08:39)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (09:00)
I have a web design background, which is what I did before I was a photographer. So I have always had a great website that really showcases my work and, has a strong portfolio. I really, really believe even now having a great portfolio, keeping it updated, keeping your website updated. I mean, I had a consultation with a commercial photography mentor last spring and completely changed my website as a result of that to appeal more to.

you know, agencies and more traditional commercial type stuff. So yeah, I guess when I say I'm not maybe great at business, have done, I am a diligent person and I work hard and I've worked hard to get my name out there. You know, I mean, some, just recently got hired by a company to do some work and they found me on YouTube. And so, yeah, and I haven't done a lot of YouTube in the last.

Nicole (09:41)
Mm-hmm.

wow.

Shelley (09:55)
four years because I've been developing my own education program and really putting all my efforts into that. But they found my videos and then they reached out to me. It's a pretty major brand and a pretty big project. so it's, yeah, you just never know. don't, that's a little bit off topic, but, but even there, you know, it was the craft. It was the fact that I am doing more than higher than average, better than average work than most of my peers.

Nicole (10:11)
No.

Yes, I love that. And I would agree. You are like my favorite equine photographer in all the lands. It's every time I see work, I'm like, that's so beautiful. Okay. That's really, really helpful. Did you have, especially when you were starting.

Shelley (10:27)
I am so honored! Aww, thank you!

Nicole (10:38)
I mean, maybe it was a little bit different because you had started with weddings. So you had like the basics, like when you started doing equine, it wasn't like you were learning shutter speed and stuff. Cause you already had that under your belt from weddings, but going back even to weddings, was there ever a point when you were starting where you were feeling. Unsecure in the craft that you were creating and like being, being nervous to share it, or were you always just like, this is the best work I've done to date. Let's get it out there and knowing that you're going to continue to prove it.

Shelley (11:06)
Ooh, that's a good question. Cause I'm not sure, it's been a long time. That's part of the problem. I'm like, hmm, because I think by the time sharing was a thing, I had already accomplished a certain level of mastery, craft mastery. And so, I mean, I've done some posts, I don't know if it's, if I've shared them lately of some of my early work and it's terrible. But at the time,

Nicole (11:13)
Right, know, sometimes it's hard to remember.

Yep.

Shelley (11:33)
it was pretty, it was what everyone was doing, know, tilting and selective color and glow. I used, you know, coming from a graphic design background, I used Photoshop in those early years to kind of cover up like, a lack of focus will make it all glowy and you can't really tell. And so, yeah, so I don't have...

Nicole (11:51)
huh.

Shelley (11:55)
a lot of self-doubt when it comes to sharing. I suppose a little bit more honestly since I broke out my education and my commercial photography accounts to different accounts, I actually struggle more with what to post to my commercial account or my main photography portfolio account because the stakes are a little bit higher than they used to be. And the work I'm doing is a little different. And so...

Nicole (12:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shelley (12:23)
yeah, so I am actually questioning those things more and just not finding the time for it. But, you know, I figure if I'm busy, I'm doing something right. So.

Nicole (12:30)
Yeah, yeah, no, I feel you on the social media struggle. It is real. And then when you're

Shelley (12:34)
Yeah, it is. And I think it's like, it gets worse as it seems to be less and less effective. like, why, why am I putting all this time into this when, you know, two to 10 % of my followers even see it? And, you know, I'd rather send an email at this point.

Nicole (12:48)
Right, right, that's so frustrating.

Yeah. my gosh. Well, that is a whole business discussion because I am a hundred percent team email marketing. And, I think it's a non-negotiable if you want to have a successful photography business, whether you're no matter who you're serving, the, the only way that you own those connections and can reach out to people. And I know a lot of people get in their head about that too, of like, I don't want to bother people, but they signed up for your website. You're not just like, I don't know, taking somebody else's list and spamming them. At least I hope not.

Shelley (13:18)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think that brings up a point too of like, it's different to start a business right now today than it was to start a business 20 years ago. But I still think that I see too many photographers jump into it as a business before mastering their craft. And I think that makes it harder for them to confidently share their work.

Nicole (13:19)
you

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (13:45)
confidently price their work, confidently build a portfolio because they're still like, I don't know if my work is good enough or I don't feel confident. They go into a shoot and do 700 pictures and only have 10 to share with their client. You know, that I just talked to somebody yesterday who had a shoot like that, like she took like 700 pictures and I only got 10.

Nicole (13:47)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (14:07)
And she was, and it was a new photographer and she didn't feel confident. Now given she didn't price, she didn't charge for that session. And I'm like kind of a big fan of that idea that if you're practicing for free, you know, fine. like, you know, talking about at what point is your craft up to the speed where you can actually start to turn it into a business.

Nicole (14:27)
all right. So this is, this is where the debate starts. Everybody, the gloves are coming off. I'm rolling up my sleeves here. Here we go. Yeah. No, I, I agree. And I totally see where you're coming from with that. I, so I want to go back to like when I started to, cause I started, really I learned my craft on my way up as I was shooting.

Shelley (14:33)
We're one of our sleeves!

Nicole (14:54)
Which is maybe for good, maybe for bad. I don't know. There's no right or wrong. None of these are right or wrong. but just different different approaches to it. So there's approach one. Well, yeah, there's approach one, which is like, all right, let's wait till we master the craft. The challenge that I see with that sometimes is I see, and I know you've seen probably students like this too, that have freaking amazing work and they still don't feel like it's good enough to charge. And, and so.

If you're going to go that route and just say, I'm going to wait until I master my craft before I start taking money from this, you need to reach out to mentors like myself or Shelley and ask us. And when we say your work is beautiful, you need to believe us. Okay.

Shelley (15:34)
Yep. And I think one of the key words here that we need to define is master.

Nicole (15:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shelley (15:41)
because I've had people in my mentorship who were doing pretty good work. Like this one example person from last year, she was doing pretty good work, but somebody at the camera store told her never to go above 100 ISO.

Nicole (15:56)
that's challenging.

Shelley (16:00)
So she had like almost all the, I know almost all the like, like she was, she was, she's a good photographer, but she was really struggling with sharpness, you know, and like shooting in lower light situations. And it wasn't until we had a one-on-one and I was like, you what? You're, wait, what? And.

And just that one change, and I cannot believe the transformation in her work because, and she got a little bit better gear, like, you know, she made some other changes, but that one thing was like life changing. And then she felt confident to raise her prices. She felt confident to market herself, you know, but like you said, if you don't have a mentor, if you don't have somebody giving you that, filling that little hole that you had, and you'd be surprised how many people have little holes.

Nicole (16:29)
Thank

Shelley (16:53)
And you know this, I'm sure, from your own experience. Yeah.

Nicole (16:55)
We all do, you and I still do. Yeah, I mean, like there's all things that we can't see. Yeah.

Shelley (17:00)
Exactly. it's just like, it's just, I feel like maybe master your craft is more of an advanced idea. Let's go back and just say, master the basics of your craft. Like if you're still in shooting in P mode or whatever, you might not be ready.

Nicole (17:12)
Technical. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No. So I, yeah, I do the same thing. I tell people that when you have technical proficiency, then like, want them to start building their business. And because here's, here's my, reasonable first, let me define technical proficiency, technical proficiency, push pack, excuse me, technical proficiency for me.

Shelley (17:24)
Yes.

Nicole (17:37)
means that I can go into different situations and get a properly exposed photograph that is sharp, that has correct white balance, that has hopefully some decent expression from whoever you're photographing. Like check those four boxes. is technically proficient. you know, are you going to be the best photographer in the world winning awards and show stopping with everything? Probably not yet. That can come if you continue to focus on it, but get to that technically proficient.

But my goal of people is like, all right, make sure you're technically proficient. And then I want them to start charging because there's two learning curves, right? We have the learning curve of like learning how to use our gear, learning how to edit, learning our craft. Like there is a lot of things that go into that learning how to manage the horses or the dogs or whoever you're photographing. And then when you're building the business,

There's all the business admin stuff, getting to collect sales tax, getting your business legally set up, learning how to price, figuring out how to order products, figuring out how to sell your products, figuring out how to market for people like major learning curves on both sides. So yeah. So like when you start your business, I think a lot of people, at least have a lot of people I've talked to, they hear so many people in the industry talking about like, you need to be going after these $10,000 sales. You can't cap your sales. You can't do this. You can't do that. And.

Shelley (18:43)
really.

Nicole (18:59)
You can't start your business there because if you're having a $5,000 plus portrait sale, like there's a level of service and excellence and, just details that go into that transaction and that business that you can't do. If you just hung up your, your shingle yesterday. So the, the business growth kind of goes through this. Like I want people to learn how to get comfortable taking money.

Shelley (19:17)
Yeah.

Nicole (19:26)
Which is kind of where I start off with that level one of like, all right, you're you, you can take technically proficient photographs. Great. Start, start charging, even if it's all inclusive, kind of low cost, knowing, knowing that you can't stay there because it will not be profitable in the long run. But, and then start adding in the products and then start building your experience and.

Shelley (19:37)
Shoot and burn. Yep.

Yes.

Nicole (19:48)
And talking about the value you bring to your clients to get to that $2,000 sale. And then eventually if you want to, you can go up to that super lux market. so anyway, so that's kind of where I come from that of like, as soon as they're technically proficient, I want them making money like tomorrow ASAP. So they could start bringing money in and bootstrap and reinvest in their business.

Shelley (20:04)
Agreed.

Yes, and I mean, I knew we'd be actually on the same page, but with slightly different mindset approaches. I believe really strongly in at least taking, you know, like a year to get that technical proficiency, get some consistency. That's another thing I feel like is needs to sort of be there before they can start asking for money is it doesn't look like a different photographer took each of the photos in their portfolio.

Nicole (20:13)
Yep. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (20:36)
And the way I did it before I learned about, your process, which I like completely love. point people to you all the time because it, really is a very similar way to how I think about it. I call it an introductory rate. So when you first start, call you whatever price you come up with, you know, that you feel whatever comfortable with or, or, you know, fits your market, you know, all the things that you would do.

Nicole (20:49)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (21:01)
But call it an introductory rate so you don't become known as the cheap photographer in your area because that happens a lot too, is they just get stuck in that, like, you know, being the cheap one. And then that becomes like their unique selling point. And then they never get out of that no matter what. The thing that I see happens at some point with a lot of people is they get that proficiency and then they bring in the business piece.

Nicole (21:18)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (21:28)
And then they keep, they start trying to build the business piece, but they're not doing more to grow their craft. Can we talk about that part? Because I think in order to raise your prices, you at the same time have to be raising your level of skill, your composition, your use of light, your expression, your editing technique. I agree. You don't have to have all of that a hundred percent figured out before you start taking some money. But I think you do have to be figuring

Nicole (21:43)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (21:57)
You do have to be on a growth curve in order to get to those five or $10,000 sales in order to get to feeling like you can sit in front of a client and do an IPS in-person ordering session and with a straight face, take that kind of money. Like, and honestly, I think there's a certain amount of imposter syndrome if you don't continue to improve your craft. But I also agree that there's, there's a need to have somebody come alongside you at a certain point.

with the craft and or the business. Cause I also see people that are really overconfident with their work and you know, and then they're struggling with why can't I book anyone? And I'm just like, my gosh, because you don't use light very well or the skin tones are all orange or you know, whatever. know, and then like you said, you have the people that are just freaking amazing and they're charging $250 for the shoot and all the files and, and both ends of the spectrum need help to do this.

Nicole (22:30)
Uh-huh.

huh.

Shelley (22:52)
right and to be sustainable in the long run, even if it's just a part-time business. And so I feel like that's really an important thing that those things come up at the same pace.

Nicole (23:03)
Yeah, no, I love that. And I do want to just speak real quick to that, even if it's a part-time business, because I feel like there's this myth in the industry that I hear so many people say, well, I'm doing this part-time so I don't need to be profitable, which I think you're doing it part-time. So you need even more for it to be profitable because you have less time. Like if I'm doing full time and I need to bring in some money, yeah, I can afford to take like, all right, let me just do this $500 like headshots for this business down the way, just to bring in some extra cash.

Sure. Fine. But like, if you're just doing this as like four clients a month, two clients a month, you know, 10 clients a year, you have a lot of business expenses that they need to cover or you just have a hobby. So make sure that, that if you're part-time, it's I think as if not more important to make sure that you're priced profitably.

Shelley (23:53)
Yeah, and but profitable is defined differently. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole (23:56)
Only a hundred percent. Yeah. Some people might have the goal of like making $5,000 a year just to pay for a vacation in their business. Other people might want to make $200,000 a year and leave their corporate job. Neither are wrong. It's just knowing what your goal is and making sure that your pricing is set up for that. And then making sure that your craft also supports your pricing and you're really the whole business experience. Yeah.

Shelley (24:15)
Yes, so you don't, yeah. And I think there's, you know, some philosophy that I have about pricing and I don't know how that, it fully fits into this conversation, but there's this phrase that I like hate and it's price what you're worth because I think it ties your price to your sense of self-worth. And we all tend to have a lower sense of self-worth.

Nicole (24:34)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Shelley (24:42)
especially as artists and animal lovers and soft and soft people, know, like people that are more heart driven. And so I want, I like to shift that to more like price what your work is worth and what your time is worth and defining it other ways than just price what you're worth because it's too nebulous. But I think that goes back to the need for a mentor too and to have somebody like, so in 2000,

Nicole (24:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (25:10)
Nine, I think it is. I went to a workshop, wedding photography workshop with David Williams. He was at the time an Australian photographer and he's just this lovely instructor. And as part of the workshop, we each got a one-on-one portfolio review and had to bring in like a paper portfolio, know, like sheet protectors and putting photos into them. This was not like on an iPad or a computer, which I actually think is like a whole different experience. But

Nicole (25:29)
huh.

Yeah.

Shelley (25:39)
He flipped through my book. I might even get emotional telling this story. He flipped through my book and he closed it and he said, what are you doing here? And I was like, what? He said, what are you doing at my workshop? I'm like, I'm learning. know, like, but up until that point, I didn't know what, I didn't know where I stood as a photographer. I didn't know, am I like,

Nicole (26:03)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (26:06)
Am I good? I mean, my friends and my family tell me I'm good, but am I actually really good at this? And he that day gave me the gift of believing in myself and understanding that I'm not just an average photographer, that I was above average and that somebody of his caliber saw something special in my work was life-changing to me. Like it gave me so much confidence.

That's what a mentor can do for you. And, and if you don't have somebody like that, yeah, you might just believe all your friends and your family members who tell you you're great, but you might actually not be that great. And that might be why your business, why you're struggling to charge, you know, it's, it's, it's such a valuable thing. And it's, I'm, I'm a mentor because of him and because of another mentor I had even before that, who gave me permission to not have to shoot everything.

Nicole (26:36)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (27:01)
but to just shoot the things I love. And that gave me permission to just go after the horses. And that was like really early on. So that was Cheryl, CJ Niklai, she used to do like children's photography workshops. And so she was a key person. David was a key person. And then I've had people since then and different critiques and conversations and mentor sessions. And it's just like, think from a craft perspective,

There's nothing better than having an individual speak into your work.

Nicole (27:31)
Yes, a hundred percent. And I want to let people know too, cause I think they might hear that and then think like, but if I get a mentor and they say there's something that needs improving, means that I'm terrible. And that's, that's not the case either. Like we've both, I'm sure along our, our way. I mean, I still get some critiques sometimes for certain things. I'm like, Ooh, I didn't see that. That's a good, that's a good thing to notice. So like, I think you have to be careful on who you're.

Shelley (27:43)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole (27:58)
willing to take critique from and make sure that it is coming from a true critique place that wants to see you, get better. So like, you know, as you're learning, I truly believe, and I think you would agree with me that seeking out critique on our work, is the fastest way to improve because when you put something in front of me or you, we can see, look at this white balance. Look at where your eye goes right over here. Then, you know, we can give.

immediate things that you can change that image to elevate it to a whole new level. And when we do that, it doesn't mean that it's bad. Like no one was born, like, you know, grew up, came out of the womb and immediately knew everything about art. Like we all learned it. So.

Shelley (28:40)
Yeah.

Nicole (28:41)
We're, we all were there and we all just were creating things. And all of a sudden you took a picture and you're like, I really like this, but maybe you don't know why. Maybe, maybe it had a really strong composition. So we're just like naturally drawn to it, but we couldn't articulate why. So when you get the critique from professionals, you trust, I mean, you can start to learn those things. You can start to see these little changes you can make. And they're usually little changes that can like, like the one student you had that was shooting on a hundred ISO all the time.

Shelley (29:05)
Hmm?

Nicole (29:10)
one little tiny change can unlock a whole new world of possibility. So yeah, this is my call for all of you guys to get some critique.

Shelley (29:16)
Yes, I agree.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've had, those were two like very life altering critiques. I've had, you know, probably 20 others in my career where it wasn't, yeah, it was, it was not, you're amazing. It was, okay, here's what you need to work on. Cause really that's what you go to a critique for, you know, and, in those situations, I was also given things to work on. and, you know, I remember one critique I had super early on, I put a

engagement session up for critique in a forum, you before social media, had forum. And they said, the person who was running it actually gave me feedback. He's like, you're moving too quickly from location to location. To this day, I still try to be conscious of like, giving people giving courses, whatever giving everyone time in a location before like feeling I needed to get up and move to another location, you know, and

Nicole (29:49)
Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (30:14)
And so, yeah, those things were years and years and years ago and they still influence what I do today, but it wasn't, you know, singing my praises. It was like, you're doing this thing and it needs, you know, if you want to get better, you can do it this way. And so, yeah, a hundred percent.

Nicole (30:28)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's a difference too. And, I'm sure everyone has experienced it where there's critiques that aren't helpful that, know, are often in a forum or online situation. Ideally, any mentor that you're actually working with is going to give you actually constructive feedback with like, Hey, here's what you're doing. Well, here's some things you can improve and in a supportive way, where then there's other critiques that are just angry people on the internet. So those just let them go, move on block, whatever.

Shelley (30:52)
Yeah.

Nicole (30:56)
Don't listen to them. but I think you bring up a really good point. Cause I think we all struggle with this. did too, at the beginning with the need to feel like I was moving so quickly through my sessions because otherwise the person I was photographing was going to know, I didn't know what I was doing. So I would be found out that I like had no clue.

Shelley (31:12)
Yes.

And if we just keep moving, they won't be paying attention because they're moving.

Nicole (31:17)
Yeah, they won't know. They won't know. They'll say like, she knows so much, but like, I'm really tired. Can I have a drink of water? No, we must go.

Shelley (31:25)
Lights going away.

Nicole (31:27)
Yeah. So yeah, so I still, I still do that too. Like sometimes even after photographing now for gosh, 15 years, I still sometimes have to be like, it's okay. Like just take a breath, take a minute. It's, it's fine. And our clients actually, think appreciate that. Like calmer energy.

Shelley (31:40)
Yeah, take a beat. Yeah.

Yes. And horses appreciate calmer energy. Like it takes horses a little while to get comfortable in a location where, especially if they're not used to going there, it's not their barn or their paddock, you know, and just, I think the more calm we bring, the more calm we give to the people and the animals and everybody just, yeah, feels better. But it does take an amount of confidence, even to say, Ooh, this location isn't really working the way I thought, can we move on? You know, there's also that.

Nicole (31:48)
yeah, and the drugs.

Thank

That's not a-

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (32:14)
aspect of, you know, I would say how you're dealing with people and, and, moving through a session is all part of craft too. Like it's, yeah, it's not just what we do with the camera. It's how we engage with our clients and their animals.

Nicole (32:22)
Yeah, 100%.

Thank you.

Yes. Yes, absolutely. All right. So as we wrap this up, I would love to get kind of your advice for someone. Maybe there's somebody out there that's kind of picked up a camera. They're like, this is interesting. I think I really like this. Maybe I want to explore this. What's their best kind of plan of action to do that?

Shelley (32:53)
Hmm, that's good. That's gonna take me a second. First of all, I would say YouTube is a great place to start to understand your camera, understand the exposure triangle. Like when you're not really quite ready to invest in a mentor, because you're just, you you just have the camera and the kit lens and you're just trying to decide if you enjoy photography, like that would be the place I would start. And then the next step I think would be

Nicole (32:57)
No problem.

Shelley (33:20)
if possible to attend an in-person workshop, even if it's like a local, you know, local workshop that is maybe not pets. Yeah, like the camera store, you know, like anytime you can be in person with somebody who knows what they're doing, because there's so many times when I'm leading a workshop or something and I'm like, realize that somebody's camera is set up wrong and it's making life really hard for them.

Nicole (33:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Through the camera store or something. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (33:47)
And sometimes just that like sitting down and going through all the menus with them and being like, okay, let's change this because then this will be like this. and having somebody to do that in person is super valuable or finding someone in your area that will do like a one-on-one. Not everybody charges to, know, thousands of dollars a day for that. And then getting involved in, you know, some kind of mentorship, like individually, or, you know, I have my wings mentorship that's really geared towards

Nicole (33:48)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley (34:16)
people who are wanting to just take a very step-by-step learning path. And it's interactive in that I make people go out and do homework, and then I give them feedback. I give them that critique on their images. And then you have kind of the craft side too of Hair of the Dog that they could be a part of. There so many videos there. That would also be a good place to start, I guess, once you're past the YouTube stuff.

Nicole (34:32)
Okay.

Shelley (34:40)
And then, yeah, and then just continue. There's so many great photography workshops out there over, you know, I think in those early years, the more things you can go where you can be learning in person, hands-on, the better. And then, yeah, the online mentorships, the getting feedback from the photographers you love. Almost every well-known successful photographer has some kind of mentorship program.

Nicole (34:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (35:05)
or mentorship, like you can have an hour of their time or two hours via Zoom or whatever. So there's a lot of different ways to do it, but yeah, I would definitely do as much hands-on as possible just because I think it's the best way to learn.

Nicole (35:20)
Yeah, I agree when possible for sure, because two things you have, like you said, somebody there to like get immediate feedback and catch things that maybe you wouldn't catch just trying to do stuff online. but also I think from our learning psychology, like we now step out of our normal day to day and you know, how many times do we try to watch something on the computer and then like, you know, the dog is barking or the cat's throwing up on the carpet or whatever, like.

The kids came over from school, I don't know, maybe just my house. Like it's impossible sometimes. So like when you commit to doing something in person or something live that has a live component, like I know your mentorship, your wings mentorship has a lot of live calls. The Academy has live calls. Like when you commit to being like to showing up live, whether even if it's on digital through zoom or something, you're still present at the same time.

with the other people and that can make such a big difference in just us focusing because man, this little phone that's sitting next to us all the time, it's such a distraction too, that it's just like, find myself, and this is crazy. This, this goes to show the problem that it is, is that like, I will do something on the computer and maybe it needs to render something to Photoshop or something and chat GPT or whatever. And it's taking like more than one second to give me the result. I grabbed my phone.

and I like open my email, even though my email is open on the big screen in front of me, I'm like, this is a problem.

Shelley (36:49)
I do exactly the same thing. I'm like, wait a minute, I was just there. I don't need to check it again. It's just like, have this habitual use of your phone of like, first I'm gonna check my email and then I'm gonna check Instagram and then I'm gonna, and I'm like, stop it. Just go for a walk, pet your dog. Like you can walk away for a few seconds.

Nicole (36:55)
You

it's so bad. it's so hard. So yeah, so anytime you can get like live in person or even online, but like live where you're forced to pay attention. Yeah. 100 % better.

Shelley (37:19)
is great. Yeah, and in my Wings mentorship, the other benefit, I mean, some people might see this as a detriment, but the other benefit is, you know, I have these homework assignments, you go out and you shoot and then you submit your homework, you do it in a Facebook group and I give everybody feedback in like a Facebook album. So you're learning not just from your image feedback, you're learning from like 23 other people and not everybody posts, but you know, around 20 other people and their homework and people have said that's actually like

Nicole (37:38)
Thank you.

Shelley (37:49)
a real bonus because you you're sensitive about your own work but you can like see what I said about their work and go yeah you know so there's there's that kind of additional learning because I like it to be public so that everybody's benefiting from everybody else's feedback not public like not public public but within the group yeah yeah no shaming ever

Nicole (37:53)
Mm-hmm.

Thank

Yeah, no, yeah. No public shaming. Don't worry guys. No public shaming. Just look in the group. Yeah, no, I agree. A hundred percent. Anytime that we do feedback like that, we like to try to make it available for others that are in that same learning journey to learn from it. Because how many times have you been in a program where somebody asks a question and you're like, that's a really good question. I have that question, but I didn't even realize I had that question. So.

Shelley (38:31)
Yeah, yeah, perfect. Yeah, really good.

Nicole (38:32)
That's a great way to learn. Awesome. my gosh. Well, this has been super fun. And, and I love that we basically come to the same conclusion, but just, you know, a little bit different ways to get there. but spoiler alert, they're both really important. So you have to grow your craft and you have to focus on the business. but I do want to kind of close to by.

Shelley (38:38)
Yeah.

Yes.

Nicole (38:53)
Saying that I don't think there's anything wrong with being more of a heart centered kind of entrepreneur. mean, I think a lot of us are, even though I am still business focused, I still feel like I'm definitely very much a intuitive heart focused kind of person too, with like, even just figuring out, right, what's next to my business or what should I do here? What should I offer? You know, even building my product list for my photography services. You know, it's a lot of it is listening to what our

And I'm like, what do you love? Because that's what you're going to sell. Yeah, exactly. You know, there's, still I've been a business 15 years. I've never carried metals and I know metals are super popular, but it just, wasn't something I loved. And I did have one or two clients that wanted it. And so I sourced it for them and sold it, but it's not part of what I promote that I sell because it's not what makes my heart sing.

Shelley (39:28)
Yeah, what's on your walls? Yeah.

Nicole (39:50)
So, you know, I think that, yeah, I guess moral of the story is no matter kind of where you feel like you are on this, like I am all business. I am all craft. Like anywhere on there can be successful, just making sure that we give some attention to both pieces of it.

Shelley (40:03)
You

Yeah, you can't really do one without the other. I think that's the super bottom line is it's like a balance beam and it's got to find a balance point because if you don't have the craft, you aren't going to feel confident in the business. If you don't, if you don't, you know, I mean, let's even, we were talking about how to grow your craft. Well, let's talk about how to get your business figured out. Well, that's the freedom focus formula. And you know, to just have that, to level out that

Nicole (40:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shelley (40:36)
that teeter totter of like, can be super heavy on craft, but not really on the business. Well, that's a hobby. And, it, can be super, right. Hundred percent. Yes. But then

Nicole (40:38)
Mm-hmm.

There's nothing wrong with a hobby if that's where you want to be. But yeah, but if you want to have a successful business, yeah, you got to focus on it. Yeah.

Shelley (40:54)
You've got to have the craft. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's a balance and we kind of pile it in different ways, but as long as we get to that point where we have the profitability in our business and we're feeling confident in the images we're creating, then that's a win.

Nicole (41:14)
Awesome. I love it. All right, Shelley, before we go, can you let people know where to find you online?

Shelley (41:18)
Yes, my primary website is ShelleyPaulson.com. My education focused website is just ShelleyPaulsonEducation.com and you know, Instagram at @ShelleyPaulsonPhotography, @ShelleyPaulsonEducation. I mean, that's Facebook too. And if it didn't fill from the waiting list, the week you're listening to this, I do have registration open for my Wings mentorship. If it is full,

and you're just hearing about it now, there is a waiting list for next year already started. So you can start to plan for next January.

Nicole (41:52)
Nice, awesome. And how long does it run? January until when?

Shelley (41:55)
January through March, so it's 12-week program. And it's mostly craft-focused, but the last week is kind of a basic overview of pricing and marketing. Yep.

Nicole (41:56)
Okay, perfect.

Love it. Awesome. All right, guys, go check it out. Shelley is one of the best equine photographers out there. So if you want to improve your equine photography fast, she is definitely here to help. So, thanks Shelley for being here. It was great to have you and everybody else have, actually is this one? no, we're going to have one more episode before the holiday break. All right. We'll see you guys next week. Bye everybody.