Nicole  0:00   
Hey everybody, Nicole here from Hair of the Dog and welcome back to the Hair of the Dog podcast. In today's episode, we are going to be talking all about some gear, specifically DSLR versus mirrorless. Where's the industry going? And we are talking tech with none other than my favorite tech talker, Charlotte Reeves from Brisbane, Australia. And yeah, if you like photographing dogs, which you probably do if you're listening to this podcast, you're gonna love this episode. Stay tuned. 
  
Voiceover  0:34   
Welcome to the Hair of the Dog podcast. If you're a pet photographer, ready to make more money and start living a life by your design, you've come to the right place. And now your host, pet photographer, travel addict, chocolate martini connoisseur, Nicole Begley. 
  
Nicole  0:52   
Hey everybody, Nicole here from Hair with the Dog and welcome back to the Hair of the Dog podcast. I have a special treat from Down Under for you guys. My good friend Charlotte Reeves is here on the podcast to talk about camera stuff. Charlotte.  
  
Charlotte  1:09   
Hi. Happy to be back. Of course. Of course.  
  
Nicole  1:17   
You know, the mirrorless cameras have changed, changed the game really in the photography space. And it's like, oh, we need to make a podcast about that. And there is no one that I can think of better to have to talk about like camera tech stuff. Then you, my friend. 
  
Charlotte  1:34   
Thank you. I'm glad you thought of me because I love that stuff. I love diving into all that tech awesomeness. 
  
Nicole  1:40   
I love it. I love it. Yeah, I love diving into it with you because I love it but I am not super techy per se other than I learned things for you. I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. So yeah, so oh my gosh, how many years has it been? Because you and I are both Canon shooters. And it's been two years that we jumped to the R5. 
  
Charlotte  2:05   
Yeah, so I think it came out right in the middle of the pandemic didn't that. So was that 2020 is that's like two and a half years.  
  
Nicole  2:13   
I think all these years run together. I feel like 2021 and even 2022 to an extent didn't really exist. 
  
Charlotte  2:21   
Yeah. Exactly. I think I'm pretty sure it was in 2020, mid, I think it was July 2020. So I preordered. As soon as I found it was coming out. And as soon as it was available to preorder, I preordered mine. And I think I was probably one of the first people to get it in Australia, at least. 
  
Nicole  2:41   
Yeah, we're what caused you ... if you can think back to then to be so excited about the R5 that you were preordered it.  
  
Charlotte  2:52   
I just really wanted to switch to mirrorless because I just love Well, I don't know, I'm a geek and I love new equipment and gear. And I feel I also sort of identified that it was perhaps where things were moving towards because other manufacturers had already started bringing out you know, professional mirrorless cameras. And I felt that Canon was a little bit behind with that. It had a couple of models I think the the AR and the RP, but it didn't have anything professional. Whereas Sony in particular was bringing out a lot of mirrorless stuff and it was only going to be a matter of time before Canon caught up and when they caught up they were going to do it really well. And that was I guess my face my faith in Canon as a brand. So that's kind of why I decided that as soon as a decent sounding one was going to come out then I was definitely jumping on it. Just so excited about the possibilities of a smaller body, of, you know, the being able to see exactly what you're shooting through the viewfinder also different lenses as well. I was quite Yeah. Because especially the 50 mm lens because I love the focal length. I love 50 millimeters on full frame as a focal length. And I've had all the Canon EF 50 mils. So the 1.8, the 1.4 and the 1.2. And I hate all of them for various reasons. 
  
Nicole  4:16   
Really? You even hated the EF ones? 
  
Charlotte  4:20   
I mean, the 1.8 is the nifty 50. Right? The 1.4 is okay, it's a bit of a workhorse but it does have some pretty bad chromatic aberration and image quality. Isn't that great? The 1.2 I mean, that's meant to be the holy grail of 50s. Right? But I always felt that the image quality wasn't there and also again, really bad chromatic aberration. And I just, I just was dying for Canon to bring out a new 50 and I'm like, right, well if I you know, go down the mirrorless Road, then surely they'll bring out an amazing 50 for the mirrorless and they did and I have it and it's awesome. 
  
Nicole  4:58   
done. I remember to when you switched. You're like, I'm so excited, because I'm just gonna have two lenses. Charlotte Reeves, you said you're gonna have two lenses. And that is it. No more. Your 70-200. And I think it was it a 28-70 or 24-70. The one that you I think just sold. 
  
Unknown Speaker  5:24   
Yeah, the one that is sold. So yeah, 28. Well, I actually did plan to have three. So I always plan to have the new 50. But I thought I would be okay with the 70-200. And then like a wide to medium zoom. And I went for the 28-70 because it was f/2. And I really did love that lens. I did, I really did. But I have just recently sold it. And the main reason is because of the weight. So the weight doesn't bother me too much. I don't have any problems holding the camera or anything normally. But when you're using that lens, you're working out quite closely with the dog generally, because it's a wider angle. And you often have one hand holding the camera and the other hand doing all the other things that dog photographers do. So you know using squeakers, using treats, rewarding the dog, getting their attention. And I just found that holding that the camera with that lens on it with one hand was just too much. And I just found I wasn't using it as much, which is a shame because it's beautiful. It is the most beautiful zoom lens I've ever used. And that's yeah, that's also including the 70-200, which is a great lens to but the image quality, depth of field, everything that 28-70 is just incredible. I just wish it wasn't so heavy. 
  
Nicole  6:47   
Right. What was the f stop on it? It's like an f/2. 
  
Unknown Speaker  6:49   
f/2. Yeah, yep. So being able to shoot at f/2 at 28 and also 70 is just ... it's crazy what a difference that slight, you know, that slight change makes in the available f stop. Just you can just get so much more light in there. And it really changes the look of the image too. So yeah, it's a shame that don't want one didn't work out. 
  
Charlotte  6:50   
That's all right. We have some other amazing ones going down the rabbit hole right before we started here. You and I both said that we just put in our order for our 135 1.8.  
  
Unknown Speaker  7:26   
Yep. Yeah. How exciting is that? So cool. So I used to have the EF 135 f/2 and that was also one of my favorite lenses that in the 35 have a lot of favorite lenses to be honest. 
  
Nicole  7:41   
I know your 35 ... I blame you for me having to buy the 35 because I tried that at one of our Barkas. I'm like, let me just play with this. And then it's like, OK, I'm gonna order that. 
  
Unknown Speaker  7:50   
Yeah, that's the famous last word, isn't it? Like, oh, I'll just see about this one. Oh, okay. I'll just have to play with it ... uh oh. I mean, that's why I bought a 1DX back in the day because I tried someone's 1DX. And I was like, Oh, God, I can't I can never go back now. You know exactly how amazing this is. There's no way I can go back. So yeah, I can understand. Understand how that happened. Happens.  
  
Nicole  8:14   
Dangerous. Maybe we just both need to find friends that shoot other systems, so we don't like just test each other's lenses. 
  
Unknown Speaker  8:20   
I know. Yeah. That's a good idea. Actually. Yeah. I'm so so excited about this 135 f/1.8, though, because it's, you know, it's an RF lens. And there's, I mean, Canon putting all the development into the RF lenses these days, I don't think I don't think they're going to be bringing out any new EF lenses. 
  
Nicole  8:41   
No, I believe they've stopped all development of EF lenses. Yeah, that's, that's what I've heard. So they're, they're the writing on the wall. Well, and I think that's one of the reasons one of the reasons I jumped over to mirrorless too which ... I waited for your review. All right, if it's gets two thumbs up from Charlotte ... 
  
Charlotte  9:00   
I'm the test subject. 
  
Nicole  9:00   
You were. And I can see that writing on the wall because, you know, Fuji and Sony have been putting so much into mirrorless. But I felt like Nikon and Canon were kind of, like, just stagnant there, that they weren't really but I think we're doing so much behind the scenes before they released it. And then when they did, I mean, the R5, the R6 are incredible. And you know, Nikon has their new mirrorless ... is it the Z9, I think? I think so. Yeah, that is just their, their incredible, incredible cameras. And, you know, you can see that that's where that's going especially when canon then announces that they're not going to be developing any more EF lenses. And, you know, it's just kind of time to go with the, go with the change, with the system. Before we talk more about that, let's just talk a little bit ... Do you want to speak to just kind of what the difference between our old trusty DSLRs versus the new mirrorless machines that we have? 
  
Charlotte  10:14   
Yeah, sure. So DSLR actually stands for digital single lens reflex camera. So basically what they have in them to allow you to see through the lens, to see what the camera's going to capture, they have a mirror system. And so that is a little mirror that then directs the image up through a prism. And so you can see it when you look through the viewfinder. So the biggest difference really, is that mirrorless cameras do not have the mirror, they're mirror less, which kind of makes sense, really. So instead of having that the image goes straight through onto the sensor. And when you look through the viewfinder, you're actually seeing what the sensor sees. So it's much more direct. And because you don't have this clunky kind of mirror system with the prism inside the camera, the cameras can be a lot more compact, they can be smaller. And in addition to that, you also have some other great things as well. So as ... when you're looking through the viewfinder on a mirrored camera, so a DSLR, you are seeing a reflection of what you're, what's coming in through the lens. When you're looking through the viewfinder on or even at the back of the camera on the rear LCD of a mirrorless camera, you're seeing exactly what is coming on to the sensor. And that's awesome, because you can look through the viewfinder and you can actually see the exposure that the sensor is going to get, which is absolutely amazing. Because whenev ... whenever you're looking through the viewfinder of a DSLR camera, you don't actually show whether the image is going to be under or overexposed, you have to refer to the light meter. If you're shooting in manual, or you have to be shooting in an automatic exposure mode, you can't immediately see the exposure. So I found that is probably one of probably the best things about a mirrorless camera is that being able to see exactly the exposure and so being able to adjust it really quickly and easily. And so you can keep on shooting because I, like many other professional photographers, pet photographers shoot in manual exposure mode. So that's ...  
  
Nicole  12:23   
Yeah. And to be able to see that feedback really quickly. I know I'm still in the habit just because old habits die hard. I mean, I shot for 10 years with the DSLR. Where you know, I take a picture and it's like, oh, hit play like to kind of chimp on the back and just make sure it still looks good. I'm like, all right, of course it does. It looks the same. And I think that was one of the hardest, not hard, one of the I don't even know what the proper adjective is. I guess my biggest unnerving thing of changing over is every time I would pull the viewfinder up to my eye and sometimes it'd be like, the old picture was still in there for a second and be like, whoa, and it like surprised me. Because I was so used to seeing just like through the mirror to like the live, you know, just straight out through my camera. 
  
Charlotte  13:11   
At what was in front of the lens. Yeah, exactly. What's there and all these other things coming up instead? Yeah. 
  
Nicole  13:18   
Yeah. What's that? Okay, shoo! 
  
Charlotte  13:21   
That was actually one of the first things that I changed because obviously, you can, you can set up the camera how you want it. So I actually made that it wouldn't come up with the previous image in the viewfinder, so it wouldn't review straightaway. I found that a lot more intuitive. And I was actually expecting it to be more of a adjustment sort of period with agreeing with what was in the viewfinder. And I found that actually wasn't because I think I think in previous like if I'd have gone and been a total early adopter and gone with like a Canon R, so one of the very first canon mirrorless cameras, the I think that is more of a delay in when you're looking through the viewfinder as to what's actually sort of happening. But by the time they got to the R5, I mean there's I don't really notice any sort of delay. It's pretty decent. 
  
Nicole  14:13   
I was just gonna say one of the biggest drawbacks I think of mirrorless cameras, when they first came out was the delay. Like even from a delay of taking the photo and the delay of what you're seeing in the viewfinder which you know, working with pets like we can't have a delay just ... 
  
Charlotte  14:33   
No. Not good for us. We need all the timing that we can get. 
  
Nicole  14:40   
Yeah, yeah. So I haven't noticed any delay with the R5 either. I mean, the the equipment truly the it's, it was a really seamless, easy transition over, other than, you know, changing a couple settings here and there. I know one of the biggest things is kind of getting used to battery life of that too, because I would say that probably the biggest drawback of mirrorless. 
  
Charlotte  15:07   
Battery life is ... yeah. Because I mean, you also like we also we both of us shot with Canon 1DX previously. So you have, you know, basically a battery pack built into the bottom of the camera. That's what made that camera so bulky. So you have this big stomping battery in there that lasts for like two or three sessions. I mean, it would just last forever. And then with a little compact R5, you've got you back to the little batteries again the same I think it's actually the same battery as you have with like a 5D. 
  
Nicole  15:40   
It is yeah, because I sold all my extra ones when I moved to the 1DX. And then like a year and a half later, I upgraded to the 5D I'm like, doh! I got rid of all those extra batteries.  
  
Charlotte  15:51   
And like those, those batteries in the old DSLRs weren't too bad. But the problem is, you're now running to LCD screens in the new mirrorless cameras. And that is why they chew through them so much. So the first thing I did was buy multiple batteries. And to be honest, I think it's fine. Now I have multiple batteries, I have a good charging system, I know which ones are charged and which ones aren't, I always charge when I get home from a shoot. So it's been a little bit of an adjustment. But it's really not that big of a problem. And the tradeoff, I guess the good thing is that it's so much lighter, the system that the camera is so much lighter to use. I mean, you don't have a massive battery in there. But you also don't have the bulk and the weight as well as the camera. 
  
Nicole  16:35   
Right. And I'm trying to think I don't think for a normal session. I don't think I've ever run out of battery. Like one battery has gotten through all of my normal sessions. If there's something that I'm shooting, like, especially long or multiple sessions back to back. Or if it's you know, like really, really cold which that's why I move south I don't really like the cold. But yeah, for normal sessions I haven't run out of I have a spare but I don't think I've ever had to use it for a normal session on I think I turned the back LCD screen off. So it's not on all the time unless I want it to be on like it's ... yeah, I'll save some battery,  
  
Charlotte  17:18   
I think you can definitely adjust it. So you can adjust all those power-saving features. So you can have the LCD screens turn off within you know, two seconds or five seconds or 20 seconds. So if you are finding that you're really showing through battery, I mean you can you can tweak things. That's what I love about this camera. So customizable. You can tweak all that stuff, you can change you your buttons around to activate different things on the camera. Actually one of the, one of the things that I really love about it is the ability to do what is being touted as double back button focus, which is really cool. So I mean the animal ... oh, gosh, there's a whole other ... the animal eye autofocus. 
  
Nicole  18:01   
I just wrote down that we need to talk about the focus. It's amazing. I mean, the 1DX wasn't too shabby. It was, it was a great camera. But then switching over to the the R5, I was like, holy cow. It's like voodoo magic. 
  
Charlotte  18:19   
It's a game changer, a complete and utter game changer. And it's not just the R5. So it's not just the Canon, we've been very Canon-centric here. But it's not just the Canon, most manufacturers, new mirrorless cameras do have some version of animal detection, eye detection, face detection. A lot of them even have things you know, vehicles, motorbikes, all that sort of stuff. You know, birds, even the new focusing system with the Canon R6ii actually has horses as well, which we actually don't have. So that's one of the things I first tested with the Canon R5, like does it recognize the face of a horse. And while it recognize eyes, I think it looks for catchlights. So it found eyes really seem to be very good at detecting, okay, this is a horse head. So it would sort of default to focusing on the body which isn't, which isn't ideal, really. But most of these cameras all have this, I guess that's the manufacturers listening to what people want. 
  
Nicole  19:21   
And I mean, the number of people photographing humans with their camera versus horses is definitely skewed much larger. 
  
Charlotte  19:31   
Yeah, that's true. That's true. So I think that ... and the fact that it's all moving towards the software in the camera as well. So I mean, you can have all of the actual moving parts of the camera and the electronics of the camera but then on top of that you've got this software and firmware that you can upgrade and it's you know, machine learning and all this stuff that is actually going to improve this stuff better and better as time goes on without actually even having to buy a new camera. So I think a lot, a lot of the time, all of these new features are just going to keep coming on top of what we existing what we already have. 
  
Nicole  20:11   
Do you have any idea? You know, because like the old DSLRs would have like 100,000 clicks, like you would have a certain like, click rate until like the camera was like, oh, that camera is getting old.  
  
Charlotte  20:25   
Shutter actuations. 
  
Nicole  20:26   
Yeah. But with the mirrorless, it doesn't have all those moving features. I'm wondering if it's like an electric car that would live longer? 
  
Charlotte  20:35   
I think so. Yeah. I mean, less moving parts is less things to go wrong, less things to fail, to wear. So because you don't actually have that mirror flipping up and down all the time. I mean, that's one less moving part, you don't actually have a shutter count really. There's not really a shutter, you know, it's electronic. I mean, technically, they could possibly last longer and be less problematic as well, which is, one of the other things that's great. But yeah, going back to the autofocus, because I've talked ... 
  
Nicole  21:09   
Yeah, let's go back to those because people are always super, you know, interested in that and how to set it up and what the options are. 
  
Charlotte  21:17   
Yeah, I mean, it's an absolute game changer. I started using it as soon as I got the camera. I was like right enough with this single-point focus and moving the focus point around to where I want it. I'm gonna make this animal autofocus work well. So there's a few little tweaks on this in the settings that I've found that make it all work a lot better. I previously ... and did you use back button focus as well? 
  
Nicole  21:42   
I still do I have mine set up a little bit different than yours. But yeah, go ahead, talk about yours. And I'll tell you how I still like to use mine. 
  
Charlotte  21:49   
Yeah, so um, I mean, there's not really, without going too far into back button focus on its advantages and why you might want to use it. It's not as relevant with a modern mirrorless camera that has the animal detection, you don't really need to use it. But the thing that I love about this is the ability to use double back button focus. So it's having the AF-on button or one button on the back of the camera set up to use animal autofocus, and then the button right next to it, which on the R5 is a little asterisk button. Having that set up to use a single point immediately as soon as you hit that button. Because while the animal autofocus is fantastic sometimes in some situations it does fail, it doesn't work as well as it should. Generally that's in relation to low light, dark subjects. 
  
Nicole  22:44   
You found running through water too, because there'd be so much specular highlights that it was like where heck do I focus? 
  
Charlotte  22:50   
Exactly. So for what I think it looks for is catchlights in eyes. And if you've got something else in the image that kind of look like catchlights, like specular highlights in water, full sun on water, it might get a little bit confused and also in dark, you know dark conditions where you don't have big bright catchlights. And if you've got a dog that's like completely black with no areas of contrast on it, it can strike, especially if you're shooting action.  
  
Nicole  23:19   
If you're photographing Ralph, Ralph .. 
  
Charlotte  23:22   
Right, Craig's dog, Ralph, the Affenpinscher, pretty much the most difficult dog in the world to photograph.  
  
Nicole  23:31   
You keep on taking pictures like where are your eyes? 
  
Charlotte  23:35   
Actually, I just visited Craig. And while I was over there, Ralph had a groom and he came back from the groomer. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can see your little face. I can see your eyes. It's amazing. So he does have eyes ... newsflash. Anyway, so yeah, dogs were ... some dogs like where you just it's very difficult to find the eyes. Obviously, the animal eye autofocus isn't going to work that well. And you might just need to switch to single point. So instead of actually switch changing the focus mode, which is pressing a couple of buttons on your camera to actually change to a different focus point, just being able to hit that button next to the AF-on button on the back and instantly have a single focus point. That is also a bit of a game changer for me. I really love having it set up like that. So I'm interested. How is yours set up? 
  
Nicole  24:24   
I guess mine is that too. So I have the one button set up exactly how I, like how I used to use back button. So I have my joystick setup. So I can just move that focal point without having to press anything first. So I can just ... my joystick just moves it wherever I want it, which that's the other game changer of mirrorless is I can move that all the way over to the end if I want instead of just ... I mean all the focus points, but now the whole world's our oyster. So I have one set up as yeah straight up like how I used to use back button focus and one set up on animal eye, like automatic ... it will just ... like an auto animal eye. And so I do that sometimes. And if it's catching it great, it's easy done. But then if it's not, I just move to my back button how I want it and the back button then because I do a lot of backlights. So having that back button still is really helpful for me too. So I can take the photo and then just, you know, know that I can just press that shutter again, and it's not going to focus on anything. 
  
Charlotte  25:31   
Yeah, because that's the thing. I mean, you want it to keep the thing that it lost focused on you don't want it to refocus on the background. That's where that's really handy. Yeah, I'm absolutely loving that. And you know, the other thing that is totally revolutionized the way that I shoot is the flippy screen. So the flippy screen, but you know, it's the articulated screen on the back of the camera that can flip out and rotate around and things like that. 
  
Nicole  25:55   
I like flippy screen. 
  
Charlotte  25:57   
I think. So, I mean, as pet photographers, we need to get down low, we need to get down to the dogs level, preferably lower camera right down on the ground. Prior to switching to mirrorless, I would ... I was just on the ground all the time I was getting up, I was getting down, I was crawling around, I spent most of my time on the ground, I found with this mirrorless, I am shooting pretty much probably about 80% of the time using the screen on the back. And what I'm doing is holding the camera down onto the ground. But I'm not necessarily on the ground with it. Which is amazing, because I can walk along and basically just bend over and hold the camera on the ground, angle that flippy screen upwards so I can see exactly what the camera is seeing. And why not shots, even take the shot. It's just so it frees up so many different opportunities, you can be a lot faster. So instead of walking over to a spot, getting yourself down on the ground, getting in a position holding the camera up to your face, you just walk on over and put the camera on the ground. And that's it, it's ready to go. Now I did find that took a little bit of adjustment. Because going from looking through the viewfinder and actually lining things up directly to angling ... angling the camera to be the right angle while looking at the screen that took practice to get right. It's not something that is just intuitive. And I never, like I've never shot with a camera that had that type of screen before. I don't think, have you? You probably have. 
  
Nicole  27:36   
No, no, no, no, I, it was new for me too. And it took ... it was definitely, definitely a learning curve to get used to that. And for a while I'd like try it and be like, forget it don't believe it down, because I couldn't get it to work exactly how I wanted it to. So it definitely takes a little bit of practice but once you get it man, that makes life so much easier. The one challenge though I do find depending on the dog is sometimes the dog wants to keep focus on your face. And so you need ways to get them to look down at the camera if it's not by your face. Yeah, it's a huge game changer for those dogs that are a little bit nervous by the camera because you're able to ... even if you keep it just below your face, like just in front of you a little bit like they can still keep eye contact with you. And if you have it up towards your face, like it still looks like they're looking at the camera, even though you're able to keep that eye contact with them. So working with those little bit more nervous dogs has been a game changer too. 
  
Charlotte  28:40   
Yeah, definitely. I definitely work really hard to get eye contact with the camera and actually even ... fine if I'm looking straight down on the camera, I'm not really making as much eye contact with the dog. So they're actually searching for something else to look for. Often it's actually the owner's face, which kind of sometimes might mean that I need to work to get the focus off the owner's face or you get them on the ground. 
  
Nicole  29:05   
You're like, Hey, can you lay on the ground? I'm not going to anymore. I don't have to. But you should. 
  
Charlotte  29:12   
You just hop down on the ground and stick your face right next to my camera, please. Thank you. Yeah, we're ... 
  
Nicole  29:19   
That's where a ball is very helpful. Yes, yeah, a dog likes a ball or treat or something.  
  
Charlotte  29:25   
Yeah, something else to get their focus down on because it is it actually does make a big difference. Even if you're just crouching holding the camera down and they're still looking at your face. In the picture the dog is looking up. There's no eye contact being made at all with the camera. So that's probably the biggest challenge when working like that. I will say that you can get away with more the further away from the dog you are. So that line of sight sort of lines up a little bit better. So if you're shooting with a 200 mil lens at 200 It's not going to matter quite so much if the dog isn't looking directly at the camera so you can get away with a little bit more. 
  
Nicole  30:03   
I've actually found you can almost get too low. Now, like the action shots where then there's like too much blurred green grass and like the dog's lower legs are gone. I'm like, oh, man, I gotta get higher so you can see the dog's legs. 
  
Charlotte  30:22   
Because it's so easy to get down so low, you just stick the camera on the ground. Okay, well, now the camera can't see. 
  
Nicole  30:30   
Now I'm just photographing grass. 
  
Charlotte  30:34   
Yeah, I mean, that's even just being able to shoot in from a different angle that you would normally like right next to a rock. Like, I found that when being in Spain recently at Barkelona, there were some really tight spots where I physically couldn't have got my body and my head, the position that I needed to, to shoot from that, right. But, but I could just kind of hold the camera there. And just like look through the screen, and it was, it was perfect. So it just opens up so many more possibilities, and it makes things quicker. Like that's, I'd say, that would be my number one change in the way that I photograph after switching to mirrorless. I mean, it's not just a different type of camera, it actually enables you to photograph differently, and better. 
  
Nicole  31:25   
Right, right. Definitely more options, you know. So I mean, because you have all the same options that you had with a DSLR. But now, a whole entire, you know, box, Pandora's box of new options. 
  
Charlotte  31:38   
Lots of tricks to trawl through and get excited about well, if you may anyway. And of course, you know, read the manual from cover to cover as soon as I got it, because that's just me. So I found all other cool things. So yeah. 
  
Nicole  31:53   
That's a long manual. That's impressive. 
  
Charlotte  31:57   
Just a little bit of light bedtime reading. 
  
Nicole  32:02   
I love it. I love it. So what advice would you give for someone maybe that's kind of newer at this little ... Well, two things. Let's start here with established pet photographers have been doing DSLR for a while that they have a DSLR, they're still using DSLR. When would you recommend that they start to maybe consider upgrading to mirrorless? 
  
Charlotte  32:31   
So I wouldn't say that you immediately need to run out there and upgrade to mirrorless just because mirrorless cameras are the next biggest, latest thing. However, if you are considering getting a new camera for whatever reason, maybe you feel like you've outgrown the features, maybe you want higher resolution, maybe you want a better autofocus system, instead of looking at the DSLR system, look at the mirrorless system instead. Because if you are in it for the long haul, if you think you're going to be doing this for a few years, I think it's important to to go with where the technology is headed. Because you're going to be at the forefront of it, you're not going to be dealing with you know, in five years time, you're not going to be dealing with really outdated technology that's just not being supported, not being upgraded anymore. So while you don't need to run out and buy the new latest mirrorless just because, you know just because they're out there, when it is time to upgrade or when it is time to get a new camera consider going, consider going mirrorless. 
  
Nicole  33:33   
Yeah, and you don't have to switch everything over once. They do have an adapter that you can use, I'm pretty sure all the manufacturers do, I've been using the Canon adapter, you know, I've just started switching over to the actual RF lenses. I've been using EF lenses for, I mean, a year and a half, almost two years now at this point with my camera, and they still work great. Actually some of them were even better on my R5 than they did on my 1DX of the EF lenses with the adapter which I'm just like, how. 
  
Charlotte  34:12   
It's amazing. Some lenses might be prone to front focusing or back focusing. And it's just the way that, you know, the way that it works with the DSLRs. If you put that same lens on an ArrayList it's not going to front focus or back focus, you're not going to have those issues because of the way the autofocus system works in the mirrorless cameras. So I found with my 135 mil, my old EF 135 When I started using it on my new Canon R5 it was actually a better lens. It actually better on the mirrorless with the adapter. Yeah, so yeah, I've stuck with the adapter for a little while and I've got a bit annoyed with it and then I just sort of sold all my EF lenses and went to RF but you do not need to do that. Whatever, whatever camera brand that you have, there will be an adapter where you can use your old lenses. And it can be something that you upgrade over time it can be, you know, this lens is getting a little bit old. It's not in such good condition anymore. I'm looking at upgrading Oh, well, I'll just upgrade to the mirrorless one. And if you don't have the adapter anymore, so that's nice, but it's not it's not essential. 
  
Nicole  35:20   
Yeah, agreed. Yeah, there's a couple of lenses that like, I love my 24 1.4 that ... I don't I don't know that. I will get rid of that until they have an RF one that is just as good. 
  
Charlotte  35:36   
Yeah, the L series favourably. Actually, when you've got is a 24 1.4. Is that an L series? Yes.  
  
Nicole  35:44   
Yeah, it is.  
  
Charlotte  35:45   
It is. Yeah. So that's the thing that, see, Canon are bringing out new lenses all the time for the RF system. And that's something that haven't bought out yet is L series wide-angle primes. So there's no L series prime. So there's, they've got a 24, they've got a 35. They're both f/1.8. But they're just sort of standard lenses. I actually just recently bought the 24. Because, well, kind of long story. But I sold my 28-70, I was going to buy a 24-70. And then I ended up getting sidetracked by the new bright, shiny 135. So I ended up just with the 24 RF 1.8. And it's actually a pretty good little lens. But when they start bringing out the ... they're slowly sort of replacing all of the old EF lenses with the RF lenses. So they'll be, you know, L series versions of them. And like lens technology is also going ahead leaps and bounds as well. I mean, the quality of lenses is getting better as time goes on, too. So it's not just that the actual camera body technology that's upgrading. It's everything. So exciting. 
  
Nicole  36:54   
Yeah. All pretty. It's pretty remarkable. All right. So that was great advice for people that are established, would you give the same advice to somebody that maybe is buying their first, you know, they're just kind of getting into this pet photography game? And maybe they had like a consumer level camera there. But you know, it's time for their first professional gear. But, you know, maybe they're pinching some pennies trused DSLRs. And so many people are selling their DSLR systems and moving over. 
  
Charlotte  37:34   
Exactly, yeah, that that second point, exactly. So because so many people are switching to mirrorless, you can actually get some pretty good DSLRs pretty cheap secondhand these days. So if pet photography is something that you're just sort of starting out in, you're not 100% sure that you're going to be doing it for a long time, you don't have a big budget. That's the other thing like this new mirrorless technology comes with a price tag. And it's a quite a big price tag for the professional stuff anyway, so you can get pretty professional DSLR gear like bodies and lenses, really reasonably priced secondhand. So that could definitely be thinking of it as a stepping stone like in you know, five, seven years time, you might see yourself with, you know, a nice mirrorless camera and nice new lenses. But to get to that point, you might just need to have a little stepping stone DSLR. 
  
Yeah because all that equipment still great and will still profession, professional grade lens ... er professional grade images. 
  
Exactly. And you'll probably I mean, if you're just in the first six months, one year of a being a photographer, or just sort of doing it as a hobby or whatever, you're probably not going to reach the potential of the DSLR anyway, in that time, right. So you probably actually aren't going to be using the features or aren't going to be using the mirrorless to its full potential anyway. So it's a lot to pay for something that you're not really using yet. So yeah, I mean, if you, if you have the budget for it, there's definitely ... they've just bought out some crop-sensor Canon mirrorless bodies, I think, was it the R7 and yes, I think so. Yep. 10 ... R7 and the R10.  
  
Nicole  39:26   
Oh, I didn't hear about the R10.  
  
Charlotte  39:28   
Yeah, so both of those are also they're not as expensive as the R5, R6, also the R3 which is like the flagship mirrorless so there's definitely .. and that goes across all the different manufacturers as well. So generally like Sony, Nikon, they will have the, you know, flagship amazing one that all the professional photographers want and they are starting to fill in the product range with mirrorless going all the way down to the very basic kind of entry level stuff too. So I mean, even just, then at least you're in the, in the same kind of, the same kind of system as you will be in the future upgrades. So that's true. It really depends on budget if budget's important, you don't have much to spend. 
  
Nicole  40:19   
Do you have ... I'm not sure if you know the answer this question I don't with those newer like the R7 and put you on the spot, the R7, R10. Is the focusing system similar to the R5, R6? Or is it a different focus? That was always the big difference in the DSLRs? From the consumer DSLR? To say the, you know, the the, the higher level ones, the 1DX was a totally different focusing system, which for pet photography made a big difference. 
  
Charlotte  40:49   
That's a really good point, actually. And yeah, so as far as I know that the R7 and the R10 have the same focusing system, which is ... 
  
Nicole  40:58   
I wonder if they have as many focus points or ... because I guess it doesn't matter, because there aren't really the same focus points that there were on a DSLR.  
  
Charlotte  41:05   
I mean, it works on a completely different level of technology. So the sensors, I think, are not quite as good, or as large, obviously, they're crop sensors as well. Obviously, they're gonna fall down a little bit there. But the actual autofocus system, I don't think they I don't think it makes sense for them to make a focusing system, that's not as good. If you know what I mean, right? They're making this they've already got the technology, they're already making the focusing systems for the higher level ones, I think they're just putting that in the lower ones as well. And it's, I look, that's actually sort of bringing them down into that that lower price point.  
  
Nicole  41:44   
It might not have the dynamic range. Or I wonder if it's still what the frame rate could be. 
  
Charlotte  41:50   
In low light either way, I thought like not as good in low light. But frame rate, that's actually what I was going to mention before too. So because you don't have a mirror in the camera clacking away inside, going up and down to take an image, we're seeing a lot higher frames per second, as well, because there's the mechanical shutter. And then there's the electronic shutter as well. And electronic shutters on these modern mirrorless professional cameras are insane. Just insane. 20 frames a second, something that was not even and even up to 30 I think with some of the Sony's, maybe with the latest R3. And I mean, high frames per second high frame rate for us as pet photographers shooting action is just incredible. 
  
Nicole  42:39   
Right? Yeah, what was the 1DX like 14 And that was a lot. 
  
Charlotte  42:43   
14, it sounded like a machine gun. So I mean, the other thing is, it's silent. If you put it on the electronic shutter at 20 frames a second on my Canon five, you can't even hear it shooting. It's almost like a shooting video. But with really high resolution frames, individual frames is absolutely great. And that's just going to get better and better as time goes on, too. So there was an issue called rolling shutter with the electronic shutter, where you'd get a bit of distortion in the image because of the way that the shutter functions. But even that they're designed, they've designed it in a different way now so that you're it's really minimizing that rolling shutter as well. So that's geez ... sorry, that just like went back to like one of the one of the things I love about mirrorless. So I've got a bit off topic there. 
  
Nicole  43:35   
No, it's all good. It was about mirrorless. We're good. I love it. All right. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation, I have a feeling we might have convinced more than a handful of people to upgrade their equipment. I'm sorry, we should have put a disclaimer at the beginning of this episode that do not listen to this episode, if you do not want to be tempted to upgrade gear. 
  
Charlotte  44:01   
Yeah, pretty much Sorry, guys. Sorry about that. I will just say that, like, if you're happy with your gear, there's absolutely no reason you need to go out and buy all the latest and greatest stuff. Yeah, and you can get really good gear secondhand. That's not necessarily mirrorless but still probably a massive upgrade. If you're shooting with like a more, you know, consumer level kind of camera. So yeah, you don't have to go out and spend all the money. 
  
Nicole  44:24   
Yeah, for sure. And one more question. As we sum this up for people that again, are towards the beginning of their journey, and they're like, oh, man, I really want to like use some piece of gear to upgrade my ... the look of my images. Do they invest in a lens on a lower level body or do they upgrade the body before the lens? What came first? 
  
Charlotte  44:47   
The chicken and egg thing, hey, it's the age-old question. And it's one of those things where you really need more information before you can recommend something. So if you find, if you find that you really We love shooting action, but your camera is just ... doesn't have very high frames a second or the autofocus system is not very reliable. And that's the number one thing that you want to improve, a body is, a new camera body is probably going to be the best option. It also might be the lens in that case, too, because some older lenses just don't have the motors in them, they just cannot keep up with refocusing, they can't actually keep up with the autofocus system of the camera. Therefore, it might be the lens that needs to be upgraded in that exact same sort of outcome, wished-for outcome. Yeah, so it's really you have to really look at what sort of images you want to create, where you're being held back. So is it low light, you know, is it the fact that you're not getting those smooth, dreamy backgrounds, then possibly, you need a prime lens, or you need to upgrade your lens, so you can shoot at a shallower depth of field? Like what do you want to achieve? Because only by knowing that we you know what is best to upgrade. So I'm sorry, there's no, there's no answer. There's no one size fits all answer to that question. 
  
Nicole  46:09   
The answer is to come ask us inside Hair of the Dog academy or Unleashed Education. 
  
Charlotte  46:14   
Yeah, and we'll be able to help you out individually, on an individual basis. Yep. 
  
Nicole  46:20   
Perfect. Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you, Charlotte, this has been such a great conversation. Absolutely love it. If people want to hear more from you, you are a regular guest instructor in the academy with your Critique Corner where people can submit images of theirs and you can give them feedback and help them take it up to another level. And they can also find you at Unleashed Education. So tell them where they can find you on the interwebs as well. 
  
Charlotte  46:47   
Okay, cool. So Unleashed Education. I run that with Craig Turner-Bullock, a New Zealand photographer. And you can find us at unleashed.education. That is the URL for that. And then if you, we're also obviously on Facebook, Instagram, so if you wanted to search for Unleashed Education, you will find this there. 
  
Nicole  47:07   
Perfect. And if you guys want to come photograph dogs in Iceland with us in June 2024 with myself, Charlotte, Craig and Kaylee Greer from Dog Breath Photography, go to petphotographyretreats.com, pop your name on that waitlist, because we have a Barka adventure coming up and ... 
  
Charlotte 
It's going to be incredible.  
  
Nicole 
Ridiculous. Yeah. I love it. So fun. All right. Awesome, Charlotte. It was so good to chat with you. And I'll love you guys. We'll see you next week. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thanks for listening to the hair. The dog podcast. This was episode number 178. If you want to check out any of the show notes for access to the resources that we mentioned, simply go to www dot hair of the dog academy.com/ 178. 
  
Voiceover  47:58   
Thanks for listening to this episode of hair of the dog podcast. If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to leave a review. And while you're there, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes. One last thing. If you are ready to dive into more resources, head over to our website at WWW dot hair of the dog academy.com Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community. 
  
Transcribed by https://otter.ai 
 
Nicole  0:00   
Hey everybody, Nicole here from Hair of the Dog and welcome back to the Hair of the Dog podcast. In today's episode, we are going to be talking all about some gear, specifically DSLR versus mirrorless. Where's the industry going? And we are talking tech with none other than my favorite tech talker, Charlotte Reeves from Brisbane, Australia. And yeah, if you like photographing dogs, which you probably do if you're listening to this podcast, you're gonna love this episode. Stay tuned. 
  
Voiceover  0:34   
Welcome to the Hair of the Dog podcast. If you're a pet photographer, ready to make more money and start living a life by your design, you've come to the right place. And now your host, pet photographer, travel addict, chocolate martini connoisseur, Nicole Begley. 
  
Nicole  0:52   
Hey everybody, Nicole here from Hair with the Dog and welcome back to the Hair of the Dog podcast. I have a special treat from Down Under for you guys. My good friend Charlotte Reeves is here on the podcast to talk about camera stuff. Charlotte.  
  
Charlotte  1:09   
Hi. Happy to be back. Of course. Of course.  
  
Nicole  1:17   
You know, the mirrorless cameras have changed, changed the game really in the photography space. And it's like, oh, we need to make a podcast about that. And there is no one that I can think of better to have to talk about like camera tech stuff. Then you, my friend. 
  
Charlotte  1:34   
Thank you. I'm glad you thought of me because I love that stuff. I love diving into all that tech awesomeness. 
  
Nicole  1:40   
I love it. I love it. Yeah, I love diving into it with you because I love it but I am not super techy per se other than I learned things for you. I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. So yeah, so oh my gosh, how many years has it been? Because you and I are both Canon shooters. And it's been two years that we jumped to the R5. 
  
Charlotte  2:05   
Yeah, so I think it came out right in the middle of the pandemic didn't that. So was that 2020 is that's like two and a half years.  
  
Nicole  2:13   
I think all these years run together. I feel like 2021 and even 2022 to an extent didn't really exist. 
  
Charlotte  2:21   
Yeah. Exactly. I think I'm pretty sure it was in 2020, mid, I think it was July 2020. So I preordered. As soon as I found it was coming out. And as soon as it was available to preorder, I preordered mine. And I think I was probably one of the first people to get it in Australia, at least. 
  
Nicole  2:41   
Yeah, we're what caused you ... if you can think back to then to be so excited about the R5 that you were preordered it.  
  
Charlotte  2:52   
I just really wanted to switch to mirrorless because I just love Well, I don't know, I'm a geek and I love new equipment and gear. And I feel I also sort of identified that it was perhaps where things were moving towards because other manufacturers had already started bringing out you know, professional mirrorless cameras. And I felt that Canon was a little bit behind with that. It had a couple of models I think the the AR and the RP, but it didn't have anything professional. Whereas Sony in particular was bringing out a lot of mirrorless stuff and it was only going to be a matter of time before Canon caught up and when they caught up they were going to do it really well. And that was I guess my face my faith in Canon as a brand. So that's kind of why I decided that as soon as a decent sounding one was going to come out then I was definitely jumping on it. Just so excited about the possibilities of a smaller body, of, you know, the being able to see exactly what you're shooting through the viewfinder also different lenses as well. I was quite Yeah. Because especially the 50 mm lens because I love the focal length. I love 50 millimeters on full frame as a focal length. And I've had all the Canon EF 50 mils. So the 1.8, the 1.4 and the 1.2. And I hate all of them for various reasons. 
  
Nicole  4:16   
Really? You even hated the EF ones? 
  
Charlotte  4:20   
I mean, the 1.8 is the nifty 50. Right? The 1.4 is okay, it's a bit of a workhorse but it does have some pretty bad chromatic aberration and image quality. Isn't that great? The 1.2 I mean, that's meant to be the holy grail of 50s. Right? But I always felt that the image quality wasn't there and also again, really bad chromatic aberration. And I just, I just was dying for Canon to bring out a new 50 and I'm like, right, well if I you know, go down the mirrorless Road, then surely they'll bring out an amazing 50 for the mirrorless and they did and I have it and it's awesome. 
  
Nicole  4:58   
done. I remember to when you switched. You're like, I'm so excited, because I'm just gonna have two lenses. Charlotte Reeves, you said you're gonna have two lenses. And that is it. No more. Your 70-200. And I think it was it a 28-70 or 24-70. The one that you I think just sold. 
  
Unknown Speaker  5:24   
Yeah, the one that is sold. So yeah, 28. Well, I actually did plan to have three. So I always plan to have the new 50. But I thought I would be okay with the 70-200. And then like a wide to medium zoom. And I went for the 28-70 because it was f/2. And I really did love that lens. I did, I really did. But I have just recently sold it. And the main reason is because of the weight. So the weight doesn't bother me too much. I don't have any problems holding the camera or anything normally. But when you're using that lens, you're working out quite closely with the dog generally, because it's a wider angle. And you often have one hand holding the camera and the other hand doing all the other things that dog photographers do. So you know using squeakers, using treats, rewarding the dog, getting their attention. And I just found that holding that the camera with that lens on it with one hand was just too much. And I just found I wasn't using it as much, which is a shame because it's beautiful. It is the most beautiful zoom lens I've ever used. And that's yeah, that's also including the 70-200, which is a great lens to but the image quality, depth of field, everything that 28-70 is just incredible. I just wish it wasn't so heavy. 
  
Nicole  6:47   
Right. What was the f stop on it? It's like an f/2. 
  
Unknown Speaker  6:49   
f/2. Yeah, yep. So being able to shoot at f/2 at 28 and also 70 is just ... it's crazy what a difference that slight, you know, that slight change makes in the available f stop. Just you can just get so much more light in there. And it really changes the look of the image too. So yeah, it's a shame that don't want one didn't work out. 
  
Charlotte  6:50   
That's all right. We have some other amazing ones going down the rabbit hole right before we started here. You and I both said that we just put in our order for our 135 1.8.  
  
Unknown Speaker  7:26   
Yep. Yeah. How exciting is that? So cool. So I used to have the EF 135 f/2 and that was also one of my favorite lenses that in the 35 have a lot of favorite lenses to be honest. 
  
Nicole  7:41   
I know your 35 ... I blame you for me having to buy the 35 because I tried that at one of our Barkas. I'm like, let me just play with this. And then it's like, OK, I'm gonna order that. 
  
Unknown Speaker  7:50   
Yeah, that's the famous last word, isn't it? Like, oh, I'll just see about this one. Oh, okay. I'll just have to play with it ... uh oh. I mean, that's why I bought a 1DX back in the day because I tried someone's 1DX. And I was like, Oh, God, I can't I can never go back now. You know exactly how amazing this is. There's no way I can go back. So yeah, I can understand. Understand how that happened. Happens.  
  
Nicole  8:14   
Dangerous. Maybe we just both need to find friends that shoot other systems, so we don't like just test each other's lenses. 
  
Unknown Speaker  8:20   
I know. Yeah. That's a good idea. Actually. Yeah. I'm so so excited about this 135 f/1.8, though, because it's, you know, it's an RF lens. And there's, I mean, Canon putting all the development into the RF lenses these days, I don't think I don't think they're going to be bringing out any new EF lenses. 
  
Nicole  8:41   
No, I believe they've stopped all development of EF lenses. Yeah, that's, that's what I've heard. So they're, they're the writing on the wall. Well, and I think that's one of the reasons one of the reasons I jumped over to mirrorless too which ... I waited for your review. All right, if it's gets two thumbs up from Charlotte ... 
  
Charlotte  9:00   
I'm the test subject. 
  
Nicole  9:00   
You were. And I can see that writing on the wall because, you know, Fuji and Sony have been putting so much into mirrorless. But I felt like Nikon and Canon were kind of, like, just stagnant there, that they weren't really but I think we're doing so much behind the scenes before they released it. And then when they did, I mean, the R5, the R6 are incredible. And you know, Nikon has their new mirrorless ... is it the Z9, I think? I think so. Yeah, that is just their, their incredible, incredible cameras. And, you know, you can see that that's where that's going especially when canon then announces that they're not going to be developing any more EF lenses. And, you know, it's just kind of time to go with the, go with the change, with the system. Before we talk more about that, let's just talk a little bit ... Do you want to speak to just kind of what the difference between our old trusty DSLRs versus the new mirrorless machines that we have? 
  
Charlotte  10:14   
Yeah, sure. So DSLR actually stands for digital single lens reflex camera. So basically what they have in them to allow you to see through the lens, to see what the camera's going to capture, they have a mirror system. And so that is a little mirror that then directs the image up through a prism. And so you can see it when you look through the viewfinder. So the biggest difference really, is that mirrorless cameras do not have the mirror, they're mirror less, which kind of makes sense, really. So instead of having that the image goes straight through onto the sensor. And when you look through the viewfinder, you're actually seeing what the sensor sees. So it's much more direct. And because you don't have this clunky kind of mirror system with the prism inside the camera, the cameras can be a lot more compact, they can be smaller. And in addition to that, you also have some other great things as well. So as ... when you're looking through the viewfinder on a mirrored camera, so a DSLR, you are seeing a reflection of what you're, what's coming in through the lens. When you're looking through the viewfinder on or even at the back of the camera on the rear LCD of a mirrorless camera, you're seeing exactly what is coming on to the sensor. And that's awesome, because you can look through the viewfinder and you can actually see the exposure that the sensor is going to get, which is absolutely amazing. Because whenev ... whenever you're looking through the viewfinder of a DSLR camera, you don't actually show whether the image is going to be under or overexposed, you have to refer to the light meter. If you're shooting in manual, or you have to be shooting in an automatic exposure mode, you can't immediately see the exposure. So I found that is probably one of probably the best things about a mirrorless camera is that being able to see exactly the exposure and so being able to adjust it really quickly and easily. And so you can keep on shooting because I, like many other professional photographers, pet photographers shoot in manual exposure mode. So that's ...  
  
Nicole  12:23   
Yeah. And to be able to see that feedback really quickly. I know I'm still in the habit just because old habits die hard. I mean, I shot for 10 years with the DSLR. Where you know, I take a picture and it's like, oh, hit play like to kind of chimp on the back and just make sure it still looks good. I'm like, all right, of course it does. It looks the same. And I think that was one of the hardest, not hard, one of the I don't even know what the proper adjective is. I guess my biggest unnerving thing of changing over is every time I would pull the viewfinder up to my eye and sometimes it'd be like, the old picture was still in there for a second and be like, whoa, and it like surprised me. Because I was so used to seeing just like through the mirror to like the live, you know, just straight out through my camera. 
  
Charlotte  13:11   
At what was in front of the lens. Yeah, exactly. What's there and all these other things coming up instead? Yeah. 
  
Nicole  13:18   
Yeah. What's that? Okay, shoo! 
  
Charlotte  13:21   
That was actually one of the first things that I changed because obviously, you can, you can set up the camera how you want it. So I actually made that it wouldn't come up with the previous image in the viewfinder, so it wouldn't review straightaway. I found that a lot more intuitive. And I was actually expecting it to be more of a adjustment sort of period with agreeing with what was in the viewfinder. And I found that actually wasn't because I think I think in previous like if I'd have gone and been a total early adopter and gone with like a Canon R, so one of the very first canon mirrorless cameras, the I think that is more of a delay in when you're looking through the viewfinder as to what's actually sort of happening. But by the time they got to the R5, I mean there's I don't really notice any sort of delay. It's pretty decent. 
  
Nicole  14:13   
I was just gonna say one of the biggest drawbacks I think of mirrorless cameras, when they first came out was the delay. Like even from a delay of taking the photo and the delay of what you're seeing in the viewfinder which you know, working with pets like we can't have a delay just ... 
  
Charlotte  14:33   
No. Not good for us. We need all the timing that we can get. 
  
Nicole  14:40   
Yeah, yeah. So I haven't noticed any delay with the R5 either. I mean, the the equipment truly the it's, it was a really seamless, easy transition over, other than, you know, changing a couple settings here and there. I know one of the biggest things is kind of getting used to battery life of that too, because I would say that probably the biggest drawback of mirrorless. 
  
Charlotte  15:07   
Battery life is ... yeah. Because I mean, you also like we also we both of us shot with Canon 1DX previously. So you have, you know, basically a battery pack built into the bottom of the camera. That's what made that camera so bulky. So you have this big stomping battery in there that lasts for like two or three sessions. I mean, it would just last forever. And then with a little compact R5, you've got you back to the little batteries again the same I think it's actually the same battery as you have with like a 5D. 
  
Nicole  15:40   
It is yeah, because I sold all my extra ones when I moved to the 1DX. And then like a year and a half later, I upgraded to the 5D I'm like, doh! I got rid of all those extra batteries.  
  
Charlotte  15:51   
And like those, those batteries in the old DSLRs weren't too bad. But the problem is, you're now running to LCD screens in the new mirrorless cameras. And that is why they chew through them so much. So the first thing I did was buy multiple batteries. And to be honest, I think it's fine. Now I have multiple batteries, I have a good charging system, I know which ones are charged and which ones aren't, I always charge when I get home from a shoot. So it's been a little bit of an adjustment. But it's really not that big of a problem. And the tradeoff, I guess the good thing is that it's so much lighter, the system that the camera is so much lighter to use. I mean, you don't have a massive battery in there. But you also don't have the bulk and the weight as well as the camera. 
  
Nicole  16:35   
Right. And I'm trying to think I don't think for a normal session. I don't think I've ever run out of battery. Like one battery has gotten through all of my normal sessions. If there's something that I'm shooting, like, especially long or multiple sessions back to back. Or if it's you know, like really, really cold which that's why I move south I don't really like the cold. But yeah, for normal sessions I haven't run out of I have a spare but I don't think I've ever had to use it for a normal session on I think I turned the back LCD screen off. So it's not on all the time unless I want it to be on like it's ... yeah, I'll save some battery,  
  
Charlotte  17:18   
I think you can definitely adjust it. So you can adjust all those power-saving features. So you can have the LCD screens turn off within you know, two seconds or five seconds or 20 seconds. So if you are finding that you're really showing through battery, I mean you can you can tweak things. That's what I love about this camera. So customizable. You can tweak all that stuff, you can change you your buttons around to activate different things on the camera. Actually one of the, one of the things that I really love about it is the ability to do what is being touted as double back button focus, which is really cool. So I mean the animal ... oh, gosh, there's a whole other ... the animal eye autofocus. 
  
Nicole  18:01   
I just wrote down that we need to talk about the focus. It's amazing. I mean, the 1DX wasn't too shabby. It was, it was a great camera. But then switching over to the the R5, I was like, holy cow. It's like voodoo magic. 
  
Charlotte  18:19   
It's a game changer, a complete and utter game changer. And it's not just the R5. So it's not just the Canon, we've been very Canon-centric here. But it's not just the Canon, most manufacturers, new mirrorless cameras do have some version of animal detection, eye detection, face detection. A lot of them even have things you know, vehicles, motorbikes, all that sort of stuff. You know, birds, even the new focusing system with the Canon R6ii actually has horses as well, which we actually don't have. So that's one of the things I first tested with the Canon R5, like does it recognize the face of a horse. And while it recognize eyes, I think it looks for catchlights. So it found eyes really seem to be very good at detecting, okay, this is a horse head. So it would sort of default to focusing on the body which isn't, which isn't ideal, really. But most of these cameras all have this, I guess that's the manufacturers listening to what people want. 
  
Nicole  19:21   
And I mean, the number of people photographing humans with their camera versus horses is definitely skewed much larger. 
  
Charlotte  19:31   
Yeah, that's true. That's true. So I think that ... and the fact that it's all moving towards the software in the camera as well. So I mean, you can have all of the actual moving parts of the camera and the electronics of the camera but then on top of that you've got this software and firmware that you can upgrade and it's you know, machine learning and all this stuff that is actually going to improve this stuff better and better as time goes on without actually even having to buy a new camera. So I think a lot, a lot of the time, all of these new features are just going to keep coming on top of what we existing what we already have. 
  
Nicole  20:11   
Do you have any idea? You know, because like the old DSLRs would have like 100,000 clicks, like you would have a certain like, click rate until like the camera was like, oh, that camera is getting old.  
  
Charlotte  20:25   
Shutter actuations. 
  
Nicole  20:26   
Yeah. But with the mirrorless, it doesn't have all those moving features. I'm wondering if it's like an electric car that would live longer? 
  
Charlotte  20:35   
I think so. Yeah. I mean, less moving parts is less things to go wrong, less things to fail, to wear. So because you don't actually have that mirror flipping up and down all the time. I mean, that's one less moving part, you don't actually have a shutter count really. There's not really a shutter, you know, it's electronic. I mean, technically, they could possibly last longer and be less problematic as well, which is, one of the other things that's great. But yeah, going back to the autofocus, because I've talked ... 
  
Nicole  21:09   
Yeah, let's go back to those because people are always super, you know, interested in that and how to set it up and what the options are. 
  
Charlotte  21:17   
Yeah, I mean, it's an absolute game changer. I started using it as soon as I got the camera. I was like right enough with this single-point focus and moving the focus point around to where I want it. I'm gonna make this animal autofocus work well. So there's a few little tweaks on this in the settings that I've found that make it all work a lot better. I previously ... and did you use back button focus as well? 
  
Nicole  21:42   
I still do I have mine set up a little bit different than yours. But yeah, go ahead, talk about yours. And I'll tell you how I still like to use mine. 
  
Charlotte  21:49   
Yeah, so um, I mean, there's not really, without going too far into back button focus on its advantages and why you might want to use it. It's not as relevant with a modern mirrorless camera that has the animal detection, you don't really need to use it. But the thing that I love about this is the ability to use double back button focus. So it's having the AF-on button or one button on the back of the camera set up to use animal autofocus, and then the button right next to it, which on the R5 is a little asterisk button. Having that set up to use a single point immediately as soon as you hit that button. Because while the animal autofocus is fantastic sometimes in some situations it does fail, it doesn't work as well as it should. Generally that's in relation to low light, dark subjects. 
  
Nicole  22:44   
You found running through water too, because there'd be so much specular highlights that it was like where heck do I focus? 
  
Charlotte  22:50   
Exactly. So for what I think it looks for is catchlights in eyes. And if you've got something else in the image that kind of look like catchlights, like specular highlights in water, full sun on water, it might get a little bit confused and also in dark, you know dark conditions where you don't have big bright catchlights. And if you've got a dog that's like completely black with no areas of contrast on it, it can strike, especially if you're shooting action.  
  
Nicole  23:19   
If you're photographing Ralph, Ralph .. 
  
Charlotte  23:22   
Right, Craig's dog, Ralph, the Affenpinscher, pretty much the most difficult dog in the world to photograph.  
  
Nicole  23:31   
You keep on taking pictures like where are your eyes? 
  
Charlotte  23:35   
Actually, I just visited Craig. And while I was over there, Ralph had a groom and he came back from the groomer. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can see your little face. I can see your eyes. It's amazing. So he does have eyes ... newsflash. Anyway, so yeah, dogs were ... some dogs like where you just it's very difficult to find the eyes. Obviously, the animal eye autofocus isn't going to work that well. And you might just need to switch to single point. So instead of actually switch changing the focus mode, which is pressing a couple of buttons on your camera to actually change to a different focus point, just being able to hit that button next to the AF-on button on the back and instantly have a single focus point. That is also a bit of a game changer for me. I really love having it set up like that. So I'm interested. How is yours set up? 
  
Nicole  24:24   
I guess mine is that too. So I have the one button set up exactly how I, like how I used to use back button. So I have my joystick setup. So I can just move that focal point without having to press anything first. So I can just ... my joystick just moves it wherever I want it, which that's the other game changer of mirrorless is I can move that all the way over to the end if I want instead of just ... I mean all the focus points, but now the whole world's our oyster. So I have one set up as yeah straight up like how I used to use back button focus and one set up on animal eye, like automatic ... it will just ... like an auto animal eye. And so I do that sometimes. And if it's catching it great, it's easy done. But then if it's not, I just move to my back button how I want it and the back button then because I do a lot of backlights. So having that back button still is really helpful for me too. So I can take the photo and then just, you know, know that I can just press that shutter again, and it's not going to focus on anything. 
  
Charlotte  25:31   
Yeah, because that's the thing. I mean, you want it to keep the thing that it lost focused on you don't want it to refocus on the background. That's where that's really handy. Yeah, I'm absolutely loving that. And you know, the other thing that is totally revolutionized the way that I shoot is the flippy screen. So the flippy screen, but you know, it's the articulated screen on the back of the camera that can flip out and rotate around and things like that. 
  
Nicole  25:55   
I like flippy screen. 
  
Charlotte  25:57   
I think. So, I mean, as pet photographers, we need to get down low, we need to get down to the dogs level, preferably lower camera right down on the ground. Prior to switching to mirrorless, I would ... I was just on the ground all the time I was getting up, I was getting down, I was crawling around, I spent most of my time on the ground, I found with this mirrorless, I am shooting pretty much probably about 80% of the time using the screen on the back. And what I'm doing is holding the camera down onto the ground. But I'm not necessarily on the ground with it. Which is amazing, because I can walk along and basically just bend over and hold the camera on the ground, angle that flippy screen upwards so I can see exactly what the camera is seeing. And why not shots, even take the shot. It's just so it frees up so many different opportunities, you can be a lot faster. So instead of walking over to a spot, getting yourself down on the ground, getting in a position holding the camera up to your face, you just walk on over and put the camera on the ground. And that's it, it's ready to go. Now I did find that took a little bit of adjustment. Because going from looking through the viewfinder and actually lining things up directly to angling ... angling the camera to be the right angle while looking at the screen that took practice to get right. It's not something that is just intuitive. And I never, like I've never shot with a camera that had that type of screen before. I don't think, have you? You probably have. 
  
Nicole  27:36   
No, no, no, no, I, it was new for me too. And it took ... it was definitely, definitely a learning curve to get used to that. And for a while I'd like try it and be like, forget it don't believe it down, because I couldn't get it to work exactly how I wanted it to. So it definitely takes a little bit of practice but once you get it man, that makes life so much easier. The one challenge though I do find depending on the dog is sometimes the dog wants to keep focus on your face. And so you need ways to get them to look down at the camera if it's not by your face. Yeah, it's a huge game changer for those dogs that are a little bit nervous by the camera because you're able to ... even if you keep it just below your face, like just in front of you a little bit like they can still keep eye contact with you. And if you have it up towards your face, like it still looks like they're looking at the camera, even though you're able to keep that eye contact with them. So working with those little bit more nervous dogs has been a game changer too. 
  
Charlotte  28:40   
Yeah, definitely. I definitely work really hard to get eye contact with the camera and actually even ... fine if I'm looking straight down on the camera, I'm not really making as much eye contact with the dog. So they're actually searching for something else to look for. Often it's actually the owner's face, which kind of sometimes might mean that I need to work to get the focus off the owner's face or you get them on the ground. 
  
Nicole  29:05   
You're like, Hey, can you lay on the ground? I'm not going to anymore. I don't have to. But you should. 
  
Charlotte  29:12   
You just hop down on the ground and stick your face right next to my camera, please. Thank you. Yeah, we're ... 
  
Nicole  29:19   
That's where a ball is very helpful. Yes, yeah, a dog likes a ball or treat or something.  
  
Charlotte  29:25   
Yeah, something else to get their focus down on because it is it actually does make a big difference. Even if you're just crouching holding the camera down and they're still looking at your face. In the picture the dog is looking up. There's no eye contact being made at all with the camera. So that's probably the biggest challenge when working like that. I will say that you can get away with more the further away from the dog you are. So that line of sight sort of lines up a little bit better. So if you're shooting with a 200 mil lens at 200 It's not going to matter quite so much if the dog isn't looking directly at the camera so you can get away with a little bit more. 
  
Nicole  30:03   
I've actually found you can almost get too low. Now, like the action shots where then there's like too much blurred green grass and like the dog's lower legs are gone. I'm like, oh, man, I gotta get higher so you can see the dog's legs. 
  
Charlotte  30:22   
Because it's so easy to get down so low, you just stick the camera on the ground. Okay, well, now the camera can't see. 
  
Nicole  30:30   
Now I'm just photographing grass. 
  
Charlotte  30:34   
Yeah, I mean, that's even just being able to shoot in from a different angle that you would normally like right next to a rock. Like, I found that when being in Spain recently at Barkelona, there were some really tight spots where I physically couldn't have got my body and my head, the position that I needed to, to shoot from that, right. But, but I could just kind of hold the camera there. And just like look through the screen, and it was, it was perfect. So it just opens up so many more possibilities, and it makes things quicker. Like that's, I'd say, that would be my number one change in the way that I photograph after switching to mirrorless. I mean, it's not just a different type of camera, it actually enables you to photograph differently, and better. 
  
Nicole  31:25   
Right, right. Definitely more options, you know. So I mean, because you have all the same options that you had with a DSLR. But now, a whole entire, you know, box, Pandora's box of new options. 
  
Charlotte  31:38   
Lots of tricks to trawl through and get excited about well, if you may anyway. And of course, you know, read the manual from cover to cover as soon as I got it, because that's just me. So I found all other cool things. So yeah. 
  
Nicole  31:53   
That's a long manual. That's impressive. 
  
Charlotte  31:57   
Just a little bit of light bedtime reading. 
  
Nicole  32:02   
I love it. I love it. So what advice would you give for someone maybe that's kind of newer at this little ... Well, two things. Let's start here with established pet photographers have been doing DSLR for a while that they have a DSLR, they're still using DSLR. When would you recommend that they start to maybe consider upgrading to mirrorless? 
  
Charlotte  32:31   
So I wouldn't say that you immediately need to run out there and upgrade to mirrorless just because mirrorless cameras are the next biggest, latest thing. However, if you are considering getting a new camera for whatever reason, maybe you feel like you've outgrown the features, maybe you want higher resolution, maybe you want a better autofocus system, instead of looking at the DSLR system, look at the mirrorless system instead. Because if you are in it for the long haul, if you think you're going to be doing this for a few years, I think it's important to to go with where the technology is headed. Because you're going to be at the forefront of it, you're not going to be dealing with you know, in five years time, you're not going to be dealing with really outdated technology that's just not being supported, not being upgraded anymore. So while you don't need to run out and buy the new latest mirrorless just because, you know just because they're out there, when it is time to upgrade or when it is time to get a new camera consider going, consider going mirrorless. 
  
Nicole  33:33   
Yeah, and you don't have to switch everything over once. They do have an adapter that you can use, I'm pretty sure all the manufacturers do, I've been using the Canon adapter, you know, I've just started switching over to the actual RF lenses. I've been using EF lenses for, I mean, a year and a half, almost two years now at this point with my camera, and they still work great. Actually some of them were even better on my R5 than they did on my 1DX of the EF lenses with the adapter which I'm just like, how. 
  
Charlotte  34:12   
It's amazing. Some lenses might be prone to front focusing or back focusing. And it's just the way that, you know, the way that it works with the DSLRs. If you put that same lens on an ArrayList it's not going to front focus or back focus, you're not going to have those issues because of the way the autofocus system works in the mirrorless cameras. So I found with my 135 mil, my old EF 135 When I started using it on my new Canon R5 it was actually a better lens. It actually better on the mirrorless with the adapter. Yeah, so yeah, I've stuck with the adapter for a little while and I've got a bit annoyed with it and then I just sort of sold all my EF lenses and went to RF but you do not need to do that. Whatever, whatever camera brand that you have, there will be an adapter where you can use your old lenses. And it can be something that you upgrade over time it can be, you know, this lens is getting a little bit old. It's not in such good condition anymore. I'm looking at upgrading Oh, well, I'll just upgrade to the mirrorless one. And if you don't have the adapter anymore, so that's nice, but it's not it's not essential. 
  
Nicole  35:20   
Yeah, agreed. Yeah, there's a couple of lenses that like, I love my 24 1.4 that ... I don't I don't know that. I will get rid of that until they have an RF one that is just as good. 
  
Charlotte  35:36   
Yeah, the L series favourably. Actually, when you've got is a 24 1.4. Is that an L series? Yes.  
  
Nicole  35:44   
Yeah, it is.  
  
Charlotte  35:45   
It is. Yeah. So that's the thing that, see, Canon are bringing out new lenses all the time for the RF system. And that's something that haven't bought out yet is L series wide-angle primes. So there's no L series prime. So there's, they've got a 24, they've got a 35. They're both f/1.8. But they're just sort of standard lenses. I actually just recently bought the 24. Because, well, kind of long story. But I sold my 28-70, I was going to buy a 24-70. And then I ended up getting sidetracked by the new bright, shiny 135. So I ended up just with the 24 RF 1.8. And it's actually a pretty good little lens. But when they start bringing out the ... they're slowly sort of replacing all of the old EF lenses with the RF lenses. So they'll be, you know, L series versions of them. And like lens technology is also going ahead leaps and bounds as well. I mean, the quality of lenses is getting better as time goes on, too. So it's not just that the actual camera body technology that's upgrading. It's everything. So exciting. 
  
Nicole  36:54   
Yeah. All pretty. It's pretty remarkable. All right. So that was great advice for people that are established, would you give the same advice to somebody that maybe is buying their first, you know, they're just kind of getting into this pet photography game? And maybe they had like a consumer level camera there. But you know, it's time for their first professional gear. But, you know, maybe they're pinching some pennies trused DSLRs. And so many people are selling their DSLR systems and moving over. 
  
Charlotte  37:34   
Exactly, yeah, that that second point, exactly. So because so many people are switching to mirrorless, you can actually get some pretty good DSLRs pretty cheap secondhand these days. So if pet photography is something that you're just sort of starting out in, you're not 100% sure that you're going to be doing it for a long time, you don't have a big budget. That's the other thing like this new mirrorless technology comes with a price tag. And it's a quite a big price tag for the professional stuff anyway, so you can get pretty professional DSLR gear like bodies and lenses, really reasonably priced secondhand. So that could definitely be thinking of it as a stepping stone like in you know, five, seven years time, you might see yourself with, you know, a nice mirrorless camera and nice new lenses. But to get to that point, you might just need to have a little stepping stone DSLR. 
  
Yeah because all that equipment still great and will still profession, professional grade lens ... er professional grade images. 
  
Exactly. And you'll probably I mean, if you're just in the first six months, one year of a being a photographer, or just sort of doing it as a hobby or whatever, you're probably not going to reach the potential of the DSLR anyway, in that time, right. So you probably actually aren't going to be using the features or aren't going to be using the mirrorless to its full potential anyway. So it's a lot to pay for something that you're not really using yet. So yeah, I mean, if you, if you have the budget for it, there's definitely ... they've just bought out some crop-sensor Canon mirrorless bodies, I think, was it the R7 and yes, I think so. Yep. 10 ... R7 and the R10.  
  
Nicole  39:26   
Oh, I didn't hear about the R10.  
  
Charlotte  39:28   
Yeah, so both of those are also they're not as expensive as the R5, R6, also the R3 which is like the flagship mirrorless so there's definitely .. and that goes across all the different manufacturers as well. So generally like Sony, Nikon, they will have the, you know, flagship amazing one that all the professional photographers want and they are starting to fill in the product range with mirrorless going all the way down to the very basic kind of entry level stuff too. So I mean, even just, then at least you're in the, in the same kind of, the same kind of system as you will be in the future upgrades. So that's true. It really depends on budget if budget's important, you don't have much to spend. 
  
Nicole  40:19   
Do you have ... I'm not sure if you know the answer this question I don't with those newer like the R7 and put you on the spot, the R7, R10. Is the focusing system similar to the R5, R6? Or is it a different focus? That was always the big difference in the DSLRs? From the consumer DSLR? To say the, you know, the the, the higher level ones, the 1DX was a totally different focusing system, which for pet photography made a big difference. 
  
Charlotte  40:49   
That's a really good point, actually. And yeah, so as far as I know that the R7 and the R10 have the same focusing system, which is ... 
  
Nicole  40:58   
I wonder if they have as many focus points or ... because I guess it doesn't matter, because there aren't really the same focus points that there were on a DSLR.  
  
Charlotte  41:05   
I mean, it works on a completely different level of technology. So the sensors, I think, are not quite as good, or as large, obviously, they're crop sensors as well. Obviously, they're gonna fall down a little bit there. But the actual autofocus system, I don't think they I don't think it makes sense for them to make a focusing system, that's not as good. If you know what I mean, right? They're making this they've already got the technology, they're already making the focusing systems for the higher level ones, I think they're just putting that in the lower ones as well. And it's, I look, that's actually sort of bringing them down into that that lower price point.  
  
Nicole  41:44   
It might not have the dynamic range. Or I wonder if it's still what the frame rate could be. 
  
Charlotte  41:50   
In low light either way, I thought like not as good in low light. But frame rate, that's actually what I was going to mention before too. So because you don't have a mirror in the camera clacking away inside, going up and down to take an image, we're seeing a lot higher frames per second, as well, because there's the mechanical shutter. And then there's the electronic shutter as well. And electronic shutters on these modern mirrorless professional cameras are insane. Just insane. 20 frames a second, something that was not even and even up to 30 I think with some of the Sony's, maybe with the latest R3. And I mean, high frames per second high frame rate for us as pet photographers shooting action is just incredible. 
  
Nicole  42:39   
Right? Yeah, what was the 1DX like 14 And that was a lot. 
  
Charlotte  42:43   
14, it sounded like a machine gun. So I mean, the other thing is, it's silent. If you put it on the electronic shutter at 20 frames a second on my Canon five, you can't even hear it shooting. It's almost like a shooting video. But with really high resolution frames, individual frames is absolutely great. And that's just going to get better and better as time goes on, too. So there was an issue called rolling shutter with the electronic shutter, where you'd get a bit of distortion in the image because of the way that the shutter functions. But even that they're designed, they've designed it in a different way now so that you're it's really minimizing that rolling shutter as well. So that's geez ... sorry, that just like went back to like one of the one of the things I love about mirrorless. So I've got a bit off topic there. 
  
Nicole  43:35   
No, it's all good. It was about mirrorless. We're good. I love it. All right. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation, I have a feeling we might have convinced more than a handful of people to upgrade their equipment. I'm sorry, we should have put a disclaimer at the beginning of this episode that do not listen to this episode, if you do not want to be tempted to upgrade gear. 
  
Charlotte  44:01   
Yeah, pretty much Sorry, guys. Sorry about that. I will just say that, like, if you're happy with your gear, there's absolutely no reason you need to go out and buy all the latest and greatest stuff. Yeah, and you can get really good gear secondhand. That's not necessarily mirrorless but still probably a massive upgrade. If you're shooting with like a more, you know, consumer level kind of camera. So yeah, you don't have to go out and spend all the money. 
  
Nicole  44:24   
Yeah, for sure. And one more question. As we sum this up for people that again, are towards the beginning of their journey, and they're like, oh, man, I really want to like use some piece of gear to upgrade my ... the look of my images. Do they invest in a lens on a lower level body or do they upgrade the body before the lens? What came first? 
  
Charlotte  44:47   
The chicken and egg thing, hey, it's the age-old question. And it's one of those things where you really need more information before you can recommend something. So if you find, if you find that you really We love shooting action, but your camera is just ... doesn't have very high frames a second or the autofocus system is not very reliable. And that's the number one thing that you want to improve, a body is, a new camera body is probably going to be the best option. It also might be the lens in that case, too, because some older lenses just don't have the motors in them, they just cannot keep up with refocusing, they can't actually keep up with the autofocus system of the camera. Therefore, it might be the lens that needs to be upgraded in that exact same sort of outcome, wished-for outcome. Yeah, so it's really you have to really look at what sort of images you want to create, where you're being held back. So is it low light, you know, is it the fact that you're not getting those smooth, dreamy backgrounds, then possibly, you need a prime lens, or you need to upgrade your lens, so you can shoot at a shallower depth of field? Like what do you want to achieve? Because only by knowing that we you know what is best to upgrade. So I'm sorry, there's no, there's no answer. There's no one size fits all answer to that question. 
  
Nicole  46:09   
The answer is to come ask us inside Hair of the Dog academy or Unleashed Education. 
  
Charlotte  46:14   
Yeah, and we'll be able to help you out individually, on an individual basis. Yep. 
  
Nicole  46:20   
Perfect. Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you, Charlotte, this has been such a great conversation. Absolutely love it. If people want to hear more from you, you are a regular guest instructor in the academy with your Critique Corner where people can submit images of theirs and you can give them feedback and help them take it up to another level. And they can also find you at Unleashed Education. So tell them where they can find you on the interwebs as well. 
  
Charlotte  46:47   
Okay, cool. So Unleashed Education. I run that with Craig Turner-Bullock, a New Zealand photographer. And you can find us at unleashed.education. That is the URL for that. And then if you, we're also obviously on Facebook, Instagram, so if you wanted to search for Unleashed Education, you will find this there. 
  
Nicole  47:07   
Perfect. And if you guys want to come photograph dogs in Iceland with us in June 2024 with myself, Charlotte, Craig and Kaylee Greer from Dog Breath Photography, go to petphotographyretreats.com, pop your name on that waitlist, because we have a Barka adventure coming up and ... 
  
Charlotte 
It's going to be incredible.  
  
Nicole 
Ridiculous. Yeah. I love it. So fun. All right. Awesome, Charlotte. It was so good to chat with you. And I'll love you guys. We'll see you next week. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Hair of the Dog podcast. This was episode number 178. If you want to check out any of the show notes for access to the resources that we mentioned, simply go to www.hairofthedogacademy.com/178. 
  
Voiceover  47:58   
Thanks for listening to this episode of Hair of the Dog podcast. If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to leave a review. And while you're there, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes. One last thing. If you are ready to dive into more resources, head over to our website at www.hairofthedogacademy.com Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community.