Nicole  0:00   
Are you looking to give back to your community and boost your pet photography business at the same time? Well, look no further. We have a free class coming up with Jessica Wasik from Bark & Gold Photography. And in it we are going to teach you how to partner with a charity and create a calendar contest that will not only benefit a worthy cause, but also increase awareness for your brand, strengthen community connections and bring in new clients to your business. Jess is going to share her personal experience hosting this yearly Contest, which has helped her build a six figure pet photography business and raise 10s of 1000s of dollars for local rescue. Join us on January 25 at 2pm. Eastern for this free training. Learn how to make a positive impact while growing your business. Don't worry, we'll have a replay too. So just jump on over to www dot hair the dog academy.com/calendar contest. Hey everybody, welcome to the hair of the dog podcast. I'm your host Nicole Begley. And today we have Angela Schneider on the podcast and we are going to be talking about the importance of being able to help our clients through their grief journey when you are dealing with end of life sessions. And really quite frankly, this is for anyone whether you offer end of life sessions or not. Because a lot of the things that we discuss in this podcast episode really can be put to us during many times in our life, whether they're for photography clients or not. So stay tuned and enjoy. 
 
Voiceover 
Welcome to the Hair of the Dog podcast. If you're a pet photographer, ready to make more money and start living a life by your design, you've come to the right place. And now your host, pet photographer, travel addict, chocolate martini connoisseur Nicole Begley. 
 
Nicole 
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Hair of the Dog podcast. I'm your host, Nicole Begley. And today we're here with my good friend, Angela Schneider, from Big White Dog Photography and also One Last Network which we're gonna be talking about here in a minute. Welcome, Angela, to the podcast. 
 
Angela Schneider  2:09   
Hi, Nicole, how you doing? 
 
Nicole  2:11   
I'm doing so well. It's so good to see your face. And I guess for all of you guys out there, hear your voice. 
 
Angela 2:20   
I'm getting used to the sound of my voice on podcasts. It's weird. 
 
Nicole  2:24   
It is weird. It is weird. You just, you just learned to not listen, or just get over it. 
 
Angela 2:33   
The worst is my laugh. I don't know.  
 
Nicole  2:38   
I love your laugh. Oh my goodness 
 
Angela Schneider  2:39   
It comes from all the way down here. 
 
Nicole  2:41   
That's the best kind. All right, anyway, there's probably gonna be a lot of that laughter on this podcast, I have a feeling even though we might be talking about some non as laughable things. But before we get into all of that, tell us a little bit about your photography journey when you started your photography, business and kind of what that whole thing looked like. 
 
Angela Schneider  3:02   
Oh, boy. Well, when people asked me how long I've been taking pictures, I think back to when I would steal my brother's point and shoot, which is on the shelf behind me and take pictures of our rough collie Princess. And that evolved into me bugging the photography club teacher at my high school to let me learn on his Nikon film SLR -- I'm dating myself. This was the 80s. I was a bit of a high school nerd and I spent a lot of time in the darkroom and I just loved it. I love the smell of fixer. I am so strange like that. And it evolved into a journalism career, mostly sports journalism. That took me from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland, British Columbia and Alberta. When I moved to Alberta, though, I joined the Calgary Sun and we had … I always had to do my own photography working in small town newspapers. And we had such a large photojournalism staff that I didn't need to do any of my own photography. So I got rid of all of my film gear. Mostly because I was sick of it too after 13 years of having to do … 
 
Nicole  4:29   
And having to shoot what you were covering, not necessarily shooting what you wanted to be shooting. 
 
Angela Schneider  4:33   
Yeah, I mean, I loved I love shooting hockey and rugby and soccer was so much fun. I hated the grip and grins. We call them you know … 
 
Nicole  4:44   
The grip and grin? 
 
Angela Schneider  4:46   
Grip and grins, check presentations and people just standing there, you know, small town community journalism. And then I met Shep and he changed my world. I had already gotten laid off from the Calgary sun, and he was there. But I jumped into marketing and communications. And from that point, I was embedded in the most soulless industry I could possibly have gotten myself into. It was really funny because it was around about the time that social media was taking off for businesses and marketing. And we preach this word authenticity. And there just didn't seem to be anything authentic around marketing. And using social media to market, it was so unsocial, what we were doing. And with various other things that happened in my life, I had a bit of a breakdown, and I went to see a therapist, and she said what brings you joy. And I said, being out in the mountains with my dog, I had started hiking, and she was like, go do that and write about it, you're a writer, write about it. And then I'm standing. So that's about the time I launched my first blog, way, way back in 2007. And, of course, I can't write and not add pictures to my stories. And I had to figure out how to get pictures. But I didn't have a camera because I've gotten rid of it. So I took my friend's … I was standing in the in in on the top of a mountain in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, the most beautiful place in the world. And I have this beautiful dog with me the most beautiful dog in the world. And I'm like, I don't have camera. This is stupid. So I went and I took my Christmas bonus that year, and I bought myself a Nikon D 40. 
 
Nicole 
And then it all started … 
 
Angeal 
Yeah, it all started and I loved taking picture the pictures of the wildflowers in spring. And I had an affinity for dead trees. I don't know why. 
 
Nicole  7:17   
Because they're gnarly. And they have amazing texture. 
 
Angela Schneider  7:20   
Yeah. So interesting shapes and stuff. And, and of course, of course, my lens started to find its way to Shep. And I just started taking pictures of him wherever he went, and whatever we did, and then he got sick and left my world. And I realized that I had all of these pictures of him. And I needed other people to have those pictures of him or not of him but … 
 
Nicole 
Right, of their dog.  
 
Angela 
Yeah, and, and I promised him that I would do this, and figure out a way wherever I was. By that point I was engaged to my, my now husband, but living in Kelowna, British Columbia. And I started to research dog photography and what was going on in Spokane and because I knew I would be living here. And it took me a little while after that to get around to launching the business. I ended up with the most soul sucking marketing job on the planet. And after 18 months of that walked out, flipping off my boss.  
 
Nicole 
Oops. 
 
Angela 
I'm pretty sure no one who knows me is passed by that. And it began and I have found that creating these images for people is one of the most soul fulfilling things I've ever done. Like even more so than my sports writing days. I thought my sports writing days was what made me a human and telling the stories of athletes all over Canada, but no, this is it.  
 
Nicole 
This is a whole new level.  
 
Angela 
Yeah, it's it's really just fulfilling work to do this and to see the impact that it has on our clients. Especially when it comes to end of life pet photography. 
 
Nicole  9:33   
Yeah. When did you … thank you for that segue … when did, when did you start the business then like when did you go from just like, hey, I'm creating this blog to oh, I want to do this for other people. Like what year was that? Approximately?  
 
Angela 
2017  
 
Nicole 
Okay, all right. Yeah, 
 
Angela Schneider  9:53   
Last year was my fifth year. 
 
Nicole  9:58   
OK, gotcha. Was that when you started Big White Dog because I remember you rebranded at some point. 
 
Angela Schneider  10:06   
Yeah, I started out as Noses and Toes and … 
 
Nicole  10:11   
That does not fit you.  
 
Angela Schneider  10:15   
Doesn't it? That was part of the problem too. It didn't, it wasn't that it didn't feel right. It wasn't until I started getting my name out there and hearing other people say it. And I always say this, it felt like that pair of underwear that will not get out of your crack. I was constantly pulling at it and trying to make it fit. And, and and then somebody dropped that word on me. And I hate that word. 
 
Nicole  10:49   
Does it begin with M? And it's five letters? 
 
Angela Schneider  10:52   
No, it's the four letter - word.  
 
Nicole 
Oh. 
 
Angela 
Cute. 
 
Nicole  11:11   
I am dying! Yeah, cute would not be anywhere on your brand. Like let's sit down as Angela and create my brand strategy. Cute 100%. That's the top of the line for me. 
 
Angela 11:26   
Back to that word authentic … 
 
Nicole  11:30   
You're like, all right, this business name days are numbered. Time to rebrand. 
 
Angela Schneider  11:36   
Yeah. And the pandemic hit. Yeah. And so I wanted it to be more about, I wanted my photography to be more about not just the dog, but also the location. I do live in a very beautiful area of the world. Right? It's not the Rocky Mountains, but it'll do. And I, you know, people would always comment, like, you have the greatest locations. I chose to celebrate that by rebranding. And of course, the name comes from the two beasts that drive me every day, Shep and Bella. And I think it just better exemplifies who I am and what I want to achieve. 
 
Nicole  12:29   
Well, I think that also goes into how you have like a lot of people, especially when they're starting out think hey, my target market's anyone that has a dog. And, you know, because we're like, yeah, we just want to photograph whatever. But now like you've niched your business into, yeah, you have an adventure dog, like, yeah, okay, you, you might photograph a Chihuahua, but most likely you're photographing bigger dogs that are out there that people have bought as hiking partners like that they you know, adopted to go out and explore the wilderness. So all of your messaging, all of your design, your website, all of those things, can consciously and subconsciously talk to those adventure dog owners. Really? 
 
Angela 13:13   
Yeah. And it continues to evolve, as your business should. Because I'm finding myself even more niching toward women who find their confidence and their power by being with their dog. And by doing things, by doing dog things with their dog. Because that's what happened to me. And as much as we say, you are not your ideal client. I kind of am. I need to look for people like me. And so that's where my messaging is going to start to evolve even more to attract those women who just invested everything in their dog. Just their best friends, their dogs are their soulmate. 
 
Nicole  14:15   
Yeah. Right. I love that so much. And that just goes to show too, because people start to get all concerned of like, oh, there's so many more pet photographers popping up in my market now. Like, that's not a bad thing. That increases the awareness. This is a legitimate thing that people aren't like, hey, it's weird that I'm getting my dog photographed. And then people start searching for hey, let me look and see what pet photographers are out there. And then they start to see and when you dive into that messaging and like figuring out who it is you really want to serve, you're speaking directly to that person and they're not going to hire anyone other than you because you're speaking to them. And I think a lot of people get really scared to get that specific with their messaging, but it doesn't mean like you'll never attract somebody, you know, that doesn't just think their dog is family that maybe is like one step down on that messaging that you're going to, you know, that they're just like, yeah, the dog sleeps on the bed, but maybe, you know, it's just, it's just slightly slightly not that main person you're targeting, like, they still very well might book you. It doesn't mean that you've like said no to everybody else.  
 
Angela 15:27   
Absolutely, absolutely, and I have my list of Nevers. 
 
Nicole  15:31   
Yeah. Oh, that's a good conversation to is to have that. That that no list. 
 
Angela 15:39   
 Yeah, it isn't just weddings and newborns. Jesus Christ, don't let me near a baby. But I am never going to do a studio shot. I thought it was going to do studio work. I had the lighting. I had those cheap setups that you get on Amazon for about 50 bucks with a continuous lighting. That's absolute crap. Don't buy that crap. I'm never going to do studio. I'm never going to do powder shots. People stop putting dogs in unsafe conditions. I am never, you know, I have my list of networks. I am still going to get people who don't want to do great epic adventures. I still want to serve that market. But what I am marketing is epic adventures. Yeah, it gets complicated when I throw in the end of life stuff. Because how do I message that? And that's my journey this year is marrying the end of life stuff with the epic adventure stuff. 
 
Nicole  16:48   
Well, yeah, I think there's an angle there of you know. Oh, I'm even thinking like one last epic adventure with your dog. Even if you can't be out hiking, you know what I mean? Like, you can still be like, hey, you know, here's all these things that you've always done. Yeah. Like, let's let's remember this, even if we can't go out and do it now kind of thing. So I think that's an  ..Yeah. Gosh, I was gonna say something else with that too. Oh, question. That's what it was about your end of life like, have you? When did you discover that you wanted to kind of serve that market? Was that when the very beginning when after you lost Shep and you were looking back at your images and was like that from the beginning of starting your pet photography business that you knew you wanted to serve?  
 
Angela 17:36   
Does anybody really get into this business with the idea that they're going to end up shooting dying dogs? 
 
Nicole  17:43   
Right. 
 
Angela Schneider  17:47   
So it wasn't a market that I want it to serve. Yeah, it was a market that I was just naturally serving. I realized in I think, 2018, that 2019, sorry, I realized in 2019, that fully 1/3 of my clients were coming to me for dogs who were in advanced years or diagnosed with a terminal illness. And I started reading about pet loss grief, not even thinking about the fact I had unresolved grief issues from losing Shep, just that I saw this as a market and wanted to be a better service provider to those clients. Because one of the things, especially since I've dived really deep into this subject, people don't know what to say. People find it awkward sometimes to be around people who are in the phase of what I know now to be anticipatory grief. Didn't have a name for that up until about a year ago. And we want to, we want to support our clients and we want to say the right thing, but oftentimes, we don't know what that is. 
 
Nicole  19:23   
And to clarify, the anticipatory grief is someone whose dog they know their days are numbered. So they know that that yeah, they're in the last hurrah. 
 
Angela 19:31   
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And, and sometimes we do say things. And we're well intentioned around saying it, but it doesn't land.  
 
Nicole 
Right. Right.  
 
Angela 
So I wanted to learn about how to support those people. And I started reading a variety of books and this is where the discussion starts to get really tough. Then my mom died. And it will be a year on January 28. And as you can see, it's still difficult. We had a, we had a complicated relationship. We were probably too much alike. Or I was probably too much like my dad and that drove her fucking crazy. And around that same time frame. This other thing popped up. And a photographer on the East Coast was giving away sessions to friends and family who, who had dying dogs. And she's made quite a name for herself, and has developed a network of photographers who want to go out and do this. Or people with cameras. And our friends, it didn't start to affect me directly. But many of our friends on the East Coast started to get inquiries around and live life pet photography. And when people found out they had to pay for these photographers to just show up. And then that they had to expect to pay two grand, $2,500 for artwork afterwards. Those people got really rude. They either ghosted our friends or said some very rude things. And we came together, especially the people who belong to the blogging group that I lead. We came together and had a roundtable discussion on what to do. And we came up with messaging on our websites to add in around end of life pet photography, or, you know, to better promote our memory sessions. But when I got back from Nova Scotia, and the funeral … 
 
Nicole 
Of your mom … 
 
Angela 
Yeah, yeah. I just had this burning in my brain, that there was something else, you know, like, I wanted, I wanted to start focusing on everybody's why. And I offered the idea of doing those interviews to another pet photography podcast, but got shut down really quickly. They didn't want other generated content. So I took Bella on one of our favorite hikes. And for whatever reason, when I'm out hiking in the woods, my brain just empties and then starts to fill up with crazy ideas. 
 
Nicole 
Same, same. 
 
Angela 
And the one thing that got into my head was you left the marketing and communications world because you were sick and tired of building somebody else's dream. And you wanted to build your own dream. So why in the world would you contribute to someone else's podcast when you can just do your own? And I started coming up with ideas. And then the podcast I, you know, I actually started brain dumping everything into a Facebook message to Marika Moffitt. Because I knew that whatever I was coming up with it was checking off all of her boxes. And she would be like, do it, just do it. And then I came up with the idea to how do I how do I build this as a business not just as a podcast to help, right? Pet guardians with pet loss grief, that's, that's what the pet, that's what the podcast was going to be about. But why do anything if you can't make money doing it? So I came up with the idea to build a directory for photographers, pet photographers who want to market pet loss grief, and then teach them how to be better content creators, which is one of the things I'm really good at. So I have the framework for that. And then I have a coaching session with Heather Lahtinen. 
 
Nicole  25:00   
Tthis cannot go well or does it? At the time looks like oh boy. And afterwards you're like oh it's really good. It's like then you get that massage that like they're working that one area like oh my god I'm gonna tell him to stop that really hurts. That really hurts. OK, but now it's good.  
 
Angela 25:27   
Heather said why don't you go become a grief coach? And I was like, what … wait what?  
 
Nicole 
Is that a thing? 
 
Angela 
So I did. I am now a master grief coach certified under Kathy Cheshire, a renowned grief expert and I am a pet loss grief companion certified under Two Hearts Pet Loss Center and Coleen Ellis, who is such an amazing human being. And I am working towards my grief educator certification under renowned grief expert David Kessler, I will be graduating in about three or four weeks. 
 
Nicole  26:11   
Congratulations. 
 
Angela 26:12   
Thank you. And it culminates in me having created my own course to lead pet photographers to be a better service provider for their clients who come to them in the anticipatory grief stages of their pets' lives. 
 
Nicole  26:29   
Yeah, oh my gosh. So I know this has been, you know, because I talk to you regularly and work with you closely at Hair of the Dog and all the things. And I know you've been planning and working on this for, I mean, really a year, but really like nine months of like, I don't I don't think people can appreciate sometimes I mean, any of you guys, actually a lot of you probably can. Because go back to when you first started to think like, hey, I want to build a photography business. Like every minute of your day often is your brain thinking about that project and what's next? And what am I working on? And what how's this going to work? And what about that? And what about this? And I mean, this is no different. Now it's just you have two businesses that you're constantly thinking about. And the one's become even more important, because your brain just can't slow down otherwise, 
 
Angela 27:25   
And I can't go for a walk in the woods right now. Because Bella is recovering from TPLO surgery. 
 
Nicole  27:30   
She'll be better soon. What's her little, her special little? What's it called? Support? 
 
Angela 27:36   
Yes. I am one of those people that has to keep a notebook nearby. Yeah, even for the 2am wake-ups. Because something will strike. 
 
Nicole  27:49   
Yeah, in the 2am wake ups. Like if you don't write it down, within five minutes, it's gone forever. 
 
Angela 27:56   
And then sometimes you wake up in the morning and you're like, what the? No. 
 
Nicole  28:03   
I find that I get some of my most inspired ideas is that like, I usually wake up, you know, because I'm in my mid 40s now so like, my kids like to laugh at me that I can't sleep like all night without having to get up and use the bathroom at some point. And really, it's like I probably could go back to sleep except that I lay there and I'm like, well, you're just gonna have to like, you're gonna get woken up again to have to go to the bathroom soon so you might as well just get up and do it now. Anyway, this is getting to be too much information for a podcast. I find that the time after that and when I like go back to sleep. It's so it's like dream sleep. But still, I guess kind of light enough that I'm waking right back up through it like man, I get some great ideas, not to toot my own horn but like my dreams create some good ideas. And I need to write those down immediately. Because then they're gone. 
 
Angela 
Stop making new businesses, Nicole. 
 
Nicole 
I know I know. I'm not allowed to do that anymore.  
 
Angela 
I hear it from downstairs. No more new businesses, spend time with your family. Who is that? 
 
Nicole 
I hear something. 
 
Angela Schneider  29:17   
I do want people to know that I didn't just launch this course willy nilly, just like you didn't launch willy nilly. I gathered together some founding members, a few of whom have since dropped off but because of time or involvement, desire or what have you, but I initially conducted the grief training for a group of six pet photographers who are my founding members and they also get to contribute to the podcast at onelastnetwork.com. And so since then, Jessica Wasik has started marketing herself as a pet loss grief specialist and her inquiries have doubled. 
 
Nicole  30:03   
Wow. Se's a rock star that one. Shout out to you Jess, if you're listening. 
 
Angela 30:12   
Oh my gosh, her energy. I turn 52 this year, Nicole. 
 
Nicole  30:19   
Oh, I can't send you the Sally O'Malley I'm 50! Saturday Night Live skit. Stretch and kick! Everybody's homework right now is to go to Google right now. Like, pause this podcast, open up your Google or Safari or whatever and search "SNL  I'm 50." You're welcome. OK, anyway.  
 
Angela 30:50   
Too funny. So, my, my certification under Two Hearts came after I created the initial grief training course. And so everything that I learned from Coleen, is now incorporated into the pet loss grief training, and it will evolve again as I continue to learn just as you continue to evolve the academy. But the feedback that I've gotten is that people feel more confident going into their end of life pet photography sessions, that they're not going to say stupid shit and they know how to give a little support. Our training is based around storytelling. And what's called the continuing bonds theory, where, when we create memories, ie epic adventures with our pets, we can use those stories and memories as healing vehicles in the days, months and years following their loss. 
 
Nicole  31:59   
Yeah. I love it. I mean, that makes total sense. You know, you look back on all the great memories for anything, you know. 
 
Angela Schneider  32:09   
For the longest time, I couldn't, I couldn't look at pictures of Shep. I couldn't look at them, especially the ones from his last few months because I am a cli … I am a walking friggin cliche. I have lived in the guilt world around Shep for a very long time. Whenever I would see photos of him from his last few months, I would beat the crap out of myself. I didn't see it. Why was I so stupid not to see it? Why didn't I get them to the vet sooner? Why? How could I blah, blah, blah, right? Just beat the crap out of myself. Oh, I've forgiven myself in so many ways since I started my grief training. 
 
Nicole  32:54   
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not going to change … beating yourself up, it's not going to change anything, 
 
Angela Schneider  32:59   
oh, it's not going to change anything. And, and the guilt is just us. It's, it's having regrets. And if we can, if we can help our clients through those stages, and let them know that what they're going through is normal, and what they're feeling is normal. It can help them get on a path to healing. And maybe not have them exist in the world of guilt that I did for the last eight years. 
 
Nicole  33:37   
Yeah. I love that. I mean, that's a huge, it's a huge service and need to offer. I just had actually a client from, oh, gosh, let's have it in mid, mid teens client. So a client that I had in 2015, probably maybe even 2014, I think probably 2015 their dog had passed away and she sent me an email just this past year, saying that, you know, they lost their dog. And you know, for the longest time she just couldn't look at the photo that we had that she had, you know, upstairs on our wall. But now now she's started to again and she's like, so thankful to have them. You know, so it like goes goes round full circle, you know that you go through that point of and probably it's probably helpful to, to be able to, you know, you don't want to warn your client, hey, this artwork that you just paid a lot of money for at one point, you're not going to want to look at it but you are going to in the future again, like you can't say it like that. But there's definitely ways by understanding how this process works, that you can, you know, set up expectations and just like just serve your client better. 
 
Angela 34:52   
I have a plan to invite when of my pet lost grief specialists, who is also a sales expert to come in and do a workshop with us to help us refine our processes around sales. 
 
Nicole  35:15   
That's huge. Because I hear that as a challenge a lot of times where maybe you did the session, and then you know, maybe the pet passes away before you're able to have the sales session, and then you feel like it's the photographer, it's like it immediately, at least for me goes to like, not that I don't think I'm taking advantage of anyone, but it just, it no longer feels fun. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, God, what are they thinking? Like, you know, they're upset? How are they going to look at these? Are they going to pay me now for pictures? But of course, they're still worth something, you know, it's, all of these things get unlocked in that situation, where we're all just a hot mess. 
 
Angela Schneider  35:58   
And you should still get paid for your work. 
 
Nicole  36:00   
Right? Yeah. 
 
Angela Schneider  36:04   
Keeping in mind that you are providing a service to the client still. And while it may be tempting to give away the farm, you've invested so much in your photography business, that you should get paid. And you have to remember that vets don't do euthanasia for free. The urn that Shep's ashes are sitting in was not free. The cremation was not free, right? None of these things are free. So we shouldn't be expected to do our photography for free. 
 
Nicole  36:52   
Yeah. And I think a lot of that is our own permission. Because a lot of it doesn't even come from the clients expecting things to be free. more from us thinking like, How can I charge someone in this situation for something that I love to do? And like, I want them to have these things. So and it doesn't quote cost me anything. It's just quote my time, you know, and some digital files. So we get all up into the shame guilt spiral of like, Well, who am I to charge them? We are just as important a service as anybody else on that list that you just mentioned. 
 
Angela 37:34   
Tell you what, my time is worth something. Right? 
 
Nicole  37:38   
Agreed. Yes, ma'am.  
 
Angela 37:43   
And I, I don't know, a single one of my member photographers who don't take a little of their profits, and turn it into a gift for those clients. One of the things we really want to stress in a lot of our messaging to is to not wait, yeah, gosh, don't wait until your, your dog has a tumor exploding out of its shoulder. Let's do this when they're young and happy and healthy and bouncy and, and we'll still get together again for your end of life session. Because those, those are vital. They really are those last few days. But gosh, get it done.  
 
Nicole  38:36   
Yeah, I mean, speaking from someone that lost their six year old dog and five days.  
 
Angela Schneider  38:41   
Yeah. Because you never know when it's gonna happen. You don't. And that's the other reason to why it's important for us to charge. We can think that our dog is near his time. But one of our member photographers had her client reach out and say -- I can't remember the dog's actual name, we'll call him Chief because that was the first dog my family ever had … 
 
Nicole  39:14   
That's a good default name. 
 
Angela Schneider  39:18   
Chief is still around. Chief went through chemotherapy and is in remission. Isn't that fantastic? Yeah, it is fantastic. Now, can you imagine if you had done that session for free? So and I'm not saying that, you know, we need to get a deathwatch certificate or something from that. But that's why it's so important that we charge because you don't know. 
 
Nicole  39:52   
I think t's really easy to I think start that off with like, oh, well, I'll just do it this one time. 
 
Angela 40:06   
But one time becomes two times and two times becomes four times … 
 
Nicole  40:07   
Exactly. And you get to the point where you're resentful, and that's no way to serve the client. You know, you don't want to serve a client in that kind of space from a place of resentfulness. 
 
Angela 40:19   
Well, I look at, I look at these people with cameras that are running out and doing these sessions for free. And if they're doing them every weekend, boy, oh, boy, are they going into burnout fast? 
 
Nicole  40:29   
Right? Yeah. And then you can't serve anybody? 
 
Angela 40:32   
Right? You're done. You hate your camera, you throw it out. You get rid of it, like I did. Yeah, in the 2000s. The 2000s. I got rid of it. You know, it doesn't. I mean, it, it is a service. And it's an important service. And the other thing I wanted to mention about it, too, from a business aspect is that I remember how social media disrupted industries. Particularly my two main industries, first journalism, social media has damn near destroyed newspaper journalism. And completely overhauled marketing and communications. So disruption is a good thing. They provide a service to the point where we have to remember that the people who are using their service are not our client. And I learned that from a very smart individual named Nicole Leonard Begley. Not every person is your client. And there was something else there. 
 
Nicole  41:54   
Well, can I just add on to that, to that, it's the same thing is when we see this new company come through, and it's like, Hey, here's free shoots. And $15 digitals in this amount, like, you guys, it's not worth your stress to worry about what anyone else is doing. Period doesn't matter, like does not matter. They're gonna get burnout. Like, their, their quality is not going to be as good. Like, there's going to be something there's always something that you have that is going to be above that and worth charging for. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again, Life moves pretty fast. And I'm just kidding. I just want to go straight into Ferris Bueller there. No, but what was I gonna say? And I'll say it again, oh, I know what it was. There's always room at the top, there is always room for providing a business and a service of unparalleled quality, of great images, beautiful artwork, and just service in being able to connect with your client. I mean, people are busier than ever these days. You know, I feel like we all slowed down during the pandemic. And we're like, oh, this is nice. And then all of a sudden, now it's like 10 speed. We're like, oh, my God, what is happening? And we were used to that, like really slow, like, oh, I have nothing on my calendar for the next five months. Like it's pretty open to every minute being scheduled. So people are busier than ever, and they're willing to pay for someone to deliver them a higher quality service product and take care of all the details for them. 
 
Angela Schneider  43:34   
Total sidebar. Yeah. You know, one of the most important things that pandemic taught me? 
 
Nicole 
What's that? 
 
Angela 
How much I hate bras. 
 
Nicole  43:43   
And buttons on pants. Currently wearing leggings, yes, thank you very much. I have the leggings on because Cami's at daycare on Tuesdays. So I believe the house and drop her off with their trainer. Because we're learning we're learning some things. 
 
Angela Schneider  44:02   
The things we have to one of the ways we have to look at disruption is as an opportunity. 
 
Nicole  44:09   
Oh 100%. 
 
Angela Schneider  44:10   
This is an opportunity for us to look at our industry and our businesses and ask ourselves how should we be messaging our businesses better? Or how should we be providing a better service to help to educate these clients with anticipatory grief for their pets? Educate them on why they should be using a professional pet photographer and learning how to be a better service provider for them by joining One Last Network and taking the grief training. 
 
Nicole  44:50   
Shameless plug. Totally works. Yeah, absolutely. 
 
Angela Schneider  44:56   
It's an opportunity. Thank you. That gal over on the east coast, thank you, because not only has it not only has it … I mean, it's a very small part of what I'm doing now. Mom, my dad and Shep are the primary drivers behind this project.  But thank you for kicking me in the ass. And, and like showing me that this is where I should be. And thank you for showing these teeny little cracks in our industry that we can fill and improve our industry. 
 
Nicole 
I am a firm believer that any disruption is always an opportunity. You might not want to deal with that opportunity right now. But it always is. I think we're gonna see a lot of that rise over the next couple years with all this AI stuff. There's just, it's … people were scared when the digital camera came out when we went from film to digital, then people were scared when like, you know, the moms with the cameras started going then there are people were scared of … there's always some reason that our collective industry and really the whole world for any industry you pick, wants to like run screaming, saying it's all going to end, it's all going to end, we're all doomed. You can, you can think that that's not going to serve you is that actually going to help you compete. Or you can say, Okay, this is the situation. How do I rise above it? How do I invent my business? How do I change my messaging? How do I reach my people that can, you know, really, truly benefit from what I'm offering? There's always a way. 
 
Angela 
People are going to be surprised by this. I am a prolific blogger. I am a writer of 30 plus years. I am so addicted to ChatGPT right now.  
 
Nicole 
Oh my God, me too. When I can't get on I get really sad. 
 
Angela 
I am shameless about throwing topic ideas in there and getting a framework for a blog post. 
 
Nicole 
100%. And then I've been using it for brainstorming to like I still, you know, used to just have to go with the thesaurus. But now I would start there. And then like give me 10 ideas for this. Oh, give me 10 more ideas for this.  
 
Angela 
I am so looking forward to the academy webinar on AI to see where she is going with it. I'm using it already. And I you know, I love ideas.  
 
Nicole  47:45   
Oh, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And the sad part was because recently they just, you know, they've been so busy because everybody's starting to use it. And then I couldn't get my saved ones because like oh look at saving. And then I couldn't get them like, Oh, where did it go. So now I copy and paste anything that I want to hang on to. I'm like, okay, whatever. 
 
Angela Schneider  48:03   
My OneNote is full.  
 
Nicole  48:07   
I would gladly pay for this. Let me pay so I can have access. 
 
Angela 48:12   
My husband is a retired from high tech and his last several years were based in coding artificial intelligence. So he knows all about it. And he all, he has long since been poking at me and going I can write a script to replace you. 
 
Nicole  48:36   
Yes, you can, but it's only good 90% of the way there it still needs some magic. 
 
Angela Schneider  48:43   
I am a part time copy editor at the local newspaper here in Spokane, and he says that he can write a code to replace me. And I looked at him and I go, dude, newspapers are still trying to catch up to 2005, come on now. 
 
Nicole  48:59   
Yeah, you got a while for this one.  
 
Angela  
I think I'm good until at least 2040.  
 
Nicole 
I love it. I love it. Hysterical, man. All right to wrap this up. This has been a fun conversation here. Let's wrap it up. Other than to check out One Last Network for people to come in and, you know, get better at their offerings for serving this type of client. Is there, do you have one or two kind of tips you want to leave somebody with that, you know, is serving this market? 
 
Angela 49:31   
Yes I do. First of all the grief training is available on demand. You do not have to be a member of One Last Network to take the grief training it is more expensive to not be a member and take the grief training. The grief training is $400 to become a platinum member. It is $300 Platinum membership includes grief training. We also offer our Platinum members the opportunity to submit to the podcast. So that also comes with geo exclusivity so that we are not watering down the content. So our Platinum members get to declare their counties. And if someone applies and wants to own that county, they cannot, they will be invited to silver membership instead. And then we'll have to pay extra for the grief training. But my one big tip is to just shut up and listen. When you're at a session with a client who is in the anticipatory grief stage, and this can apply to any session, shut up and listen to your client. Let your client tell their story. This is not about you. One of the, one of the things we often default to when we're talking to people in grief is I am thinking about you. I know when that happened to me, I … no, no, it is not about you. It is about your client. Let your client tell their story. And give them the space to tell that story in a non-judgmental space. I don't expect any of us to be judgmentable … judgmentable, did I just say judgmentable? Judgmental. 
 
Nicole  51:26   
Yeah, whatever. It's all good. We know what you mean. I think I like judgmentable better. 
 
Angela 51:27   
I don't expect any of us to be judgmental either around pet loss grief. We all understand that we shouldn't be saying, "Well, what are you worried about? It's just a dog." 
 
Nicole  51:46   
Right? None of us would actually say that. 
 
Angela 51:50   
Honestly, I will punch any pet photographer in the throat who dares to say that. But they do have people in their lives who may have said inappropriate things to them. So give them an open, compassionate, non judgmental space to tell their story and leave yours at home for an hour. That's all. 
 
Nicole  52:13   
Yeah. I love it. Is there a way like when they're telling their story that you can support them and basically say like, Hey, I get it. I've had that to without hijacking it for your story. 
 
Angela Schneider  52:28   
Yes. And you can learn all about that in the grief training on OneLastNetwork.com. 
 
Nicole  52:34   
Are you gonna leave us hanging like that? 
 
Angela Schneider  52:42   
Nicole, I can't give away the farm. 
 
Nicole  52:46   
All right, all right. Well, Angela, this has been a great conversation. And I know that a lot of our people find it super helpful. So you guys, go check it out. Onelastnetwork.com, Angela, your photography is bigwhitedogphotography.com.  
 
Angela 
It is.  
 
Nicole 
Yeah. Perfect. And yeah, so go connected, that you can connect on Instagram, what are your Instagram handles? 
 
Angela Schneider  53:10   
@bigwhitedogphotography and @onelastnetwork and all of this information will be in the show notes that I write. 
 
Nicole  53:19   
That's right. Thank you.  
 
Angela 
That's my other part-time job.  
 
Nicole 
Because spoiler alert, spoiler alert. You guys would never get an email from me if I had to write it. So yeah, if you guys want your emails on Tuesday, this is what happens. So write a good one here, Angela. No pressure, no pressure. It's only your podcast interview.  
 
Angela 
Whiskey first.  
 
Nicole 
I love it. All right, everybody, we will see you next week. Have a good week. Thanks for listening to the Hair of the Dog podcast. This was episode number 176. If you want to check out the show notes for access to any of the resources we mentioned, simply go to www.hairofthedogacademy.com/176. 
 
Thanks for listening to this episode of hair of the dog podcast. If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to leave a review. And while you're there, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes. One last thing. If you are ready to dive into more resources, head over to our website at www.hairofthedogacademy.com. Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community. 
Nicole  0:00   
Are you looking to give back to your community and boost your pet photography business at the same time? Well, look no further. We have a free class coming up with Jessica Wasik from Bark & Gold Photography. And in it we are going to teach you how to partner with a charity and create a calendar contest that will not only benefit a worthy cause, but also increase awareness for your brand, strengthen community connections and bring in new clients to your business. Jess is going to share her personal experience hosting this yearly Contest, which has helped her build a six figure pet photography business and raise 10s of 1000s of dollars for local rescue. Join us on January 25 at 2pm. Eastern for this free training. Learn how to make a positive impact while growing your business. Don't worry, we'll have a replay too. So just jump on over to www dot hair the dog academy.com/calendar contest. Hey everybody, welcome to the hair of the dog podcast. I'm your host Nicole Begley. And today we have Angela Schneider on the podcast and we are going to be talking about the importance of being able to help our clients through their grief journey when you are dealing with end of life sessions. And really quite frankly, this is for anyone whether you offer end of life sessions or not. Because a lot of the things that we discuss in this podcast episode really can be put to us during many times in our life, whether they're for photography clients or not. So stay tuned and enjoy. 
 
Voiceover 
Welcome to the Hair of the Dog podcast. If you're a pet photographer, ready to make more money and start living a life by your design, you've come to the right place. And now your host, pet photographer, travel addict, chocolate martini connoisseur Nicole Begley. 
 
Nicole 
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Hair of the Dog podcast. I'm your host, Nicole Begley. And today we're here with my good friend, Angela Schneider, from Big White Dog Photography and also One Last Network which we're gonna be talking about here in a minute. Welcome, Angela, to the podcast. 
 
Angela Schneider  2:09   
Hi, Nicole, how you doing? 
 
Nicole  2:11   
I'm doing so well. It's so good to see your face. And I guess for all of you guys out there, hear your voice. 
 
Angela 2:20   
I'm getting used to the sound of my voice on podcasts. It's weird. 
 
Nicole  2:24   
It is weird. It is weird. You just, you just learned to not listen, or just get over it. 
 
Angela 2:33   
The worst is my laugh. I don't know.  
 
Nicole  2:38   
I love your laugh. Oh my goodness 
 
Angela Schneider  2:39   
It comes from all the way down here. 
 
Nicole  2:41   
That's the best kind. All right, anyway, there's probably gonna be a lot of that laughter on this podcast, I have a feeling even though we might be talking about some non as laughable things. But before we get into all of that, tell us a little bit about your photography journey when you started your photography, business and kind of what that whole thing looked like. 
 
Angela Schneider  3:02   
Oh, boy. Well, when people asked me how long I've been taking pictures, I think back to when I would steal my brother's point and shoot, which is on the shelf behind me and take pictures of our rough collie Princess. And that evolved into me bugging the photography club teacher at my high school to let me learn on his Nikon film SLR -- I'm dating myself. This was the 80s. I was a bit of a high school nerd and I spent a lot of time in the darkroom and I just loved it. I love the smell of fixer. I am so strange like that. And it evolved into a journalism career, mostly sports journalism. That took me from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland, British Columbia and Alberta. When I moved to Alberta, though, I joined the Calgary Sun and we had … I always had to do my own photography working in small town newspapers. And we had such a large photojournalism staff that I didn't need to do any of my own photography. So I got rid of all of my film gear. Mostly because I was sick of it too after 13 years of having to do … 
 
Nicole  4:29   
And having to shoot what you were covering, not necessarily shooting what you wanted to be shooting. 
 
Angela Schneider  4:33   
Yeah, I mean, I loved I love shooting hockey and rugby and soccer was so much fun. I hated the grip and grins. We call them you know … 
 
Nicole  4:44   
The grip and grin? 
 
Angela Schneider  4:46   
Grip and grins, check presentations and people just standing there, you know, small town community journalism. And then I met Shep and he changed my world. I had already gotten laid off from the Calgary sun, and he was there. But I jumped into marketing and communications. And from that point, I was embedded in the most soulless industry I could possibly have gotten myself into. It was really funny because it was around about the time that social media was taking off for businesses and marketing. And we preach this word authenticity. And there just didn't seem to be anything authentic around marketing. And using social media to market, it was so unsocial, what we were doing. And with various other things that happened in my life, I had a bit of a breakdown, and I went to see a therapist, and she said what brings you joy. And I said, being out in the mountains with my dog, I had started hiking, and she was like, go do that and write about it, you're a writer, write about it. And then I'm standing. So that's about the time I launched my first blog, way, way back in 2007. And, of course, I can't write and not add pictures to my stories. And I had to figure out how to get pictures. But I didn't have a camera because I've gotten rid of it. So I took my friend's … I was standing in the in in on the top of a mountain in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, the most beautiful place in the world. And I have this beautiful dog with me the most beautiful dog in the world. And I'm like, I don't have camera. This is stupid. So I went and I took my Christmas bonus that year, and I bought myself a Nikon D 40. 
 
Nicole 
And then it all started … 
 
Angeal 
Yeah, it all started and I loved taking picture the pictures of the wildflowers in spring. And I had an affinity for dead trees. I don't know why. 
 
Nicole  7:17   
Because they're gnarly. And they have amazing texture. 
 
Angela Schneider  7:20   
Yeah. So interesting shapes and stuff. And, and of course, of course, my lens started to find its way to Shep. And I just started taking pictures of him wherever he went, and whatever we did, and then he got sick and left my world. And I realized that I had all of these pictures of him. And I needed other people to have those pictures of him or not of him but … 
 
Nicole 
Right, of their dog.  
 
Angela 
Yeah, and, and I promised him that I would do this, and figure out a way wherever I was. By that point I was engaged to my, my now husband, but living in Kelowna, British Columbia. And I started to research dog photography and what was going on in Spokane and because I knew I would be living here. And it took me a little while after that to get around to launching the business. I ended up with the most soul sucking marketing job on the planet. And after 18 months of that walked out, flipping off my boss.  
 
Nicole 
Oops. 
 
Angela 
I'm pretty sure no one who knows me is passed by that. And it began and I have found that creating these images for people is one of the most soul fulfilling things I've ever done. Like even more so than my sports writing days. I thought my sports writing days was what made me a human and telling the stories of athletes all over Canada, but no, this is it.  
 
Nicole 
This is a whole new level.  
 
Angela 
Yeah, it's it's really just fulfilling work to do this and to see the impact that it has on our clients. Especially when it comes to end of life pet photography. 
 
Nicole  9:33   
Yeah. When did you … thank you for that segue … when did, when did you start the business then like when did you go from just like, hey, I'm creating this blog to oh, I want to do this for other people. Like what year was that? Approximately?  
 
Angela 
2017  
 
Nicole 
Okay, all right. Yeah, 
 
Angela Schneider  9:53   
Last year was my fifth year. 
 
Nicole  9:58   
OK, gotcha. Was that when you started Big White Dog because I remember you rebranded at some point. 
 
Angela Schneider  10:06   
Yeah, I started out as Noses and Toes and … 
 
Nicole  10:11   
That does not fit you.  
 
Angela Schneider  10:15   
Doesn't it? That was part of the problem too. It didn't, it wasn't that it didn't feel right. It wasn't until I started getting my name out there and hearing other people say it. And I always say this, it felt like that pair of underwear that will not get out of your crack. I was constantly pulling at it and trying to make it fit. And, and and then somebody dropped that word on me. And I hate that word. 
 
Nicole  10:49   
Does it begin with M? And it's five letters? 
 
Angela Schneider  10:52   
No, it's the four letter - word.  
 
Nicole 
Oh. 
 
Angela 
Cute. 
 
Nicole  11:11   
I am dying! Yeah, cute would not be anywhere on your brand. Like let's sit down as Angela and create my brand strategy. Cute 100%. That's the top of the line for me. 
 
Angela 11:26   
Back to that word authentic … 
 
Nicole  11:30   
You're like, all right, this business name days are numbered. Time to rebrand. 
 
Angela Schneider  11:36   
Yeah. And the pandemic hit. Yeah. And so I wanted it to be more about, I wanted my photography to be more about not just the dog, but also the location. I do live in a very beautiful area of the world. Right? It's not the Rocky Mountains, but it'll do. And I, you know, people would always comment, like, you have the greatest locations. I chose to celebrate that by rebranding. And of course, the name comes from the two beasts that drive me every day, Shep and Bella. And I think it just better exemplifies who I am and what I want to achieve. 
 
Nicole  12:29   
Well, I think that also goes into how you have like a lot of people, especially when they're starting out think hey, my target market's anyone that has a dog. And, you know, because we're like, yeah, we just want to photograph whatever. But now like you've niched your business into, yeah, you have an adventure dog, like, yeah, okay, you, you might photograph a Chihuahua, but most likely you're photographing bigger dogs that are out there that people have bought as hiking partners like that they you know, adopted to go out and explore the wilderness. So all of your messaging, all of your design, your website, all of those things, can consciously and subconsciously talk to those adventure dog owners. Really? 
 
Angela 13:13   
Yeah. And it continues to evolve, as your business should. Because I'm finding myself even more niching toward women who find their confidence and their power by being with their dog. And by doing things, by doing dog things with their dog. Because that's what happened to me. And as much as we say, you are not your ideal client. I kind of am. I need to look for people like me. And so that's where my messaging is going to start to evolve even more to attract those women who just invested everything in their dog. Just their best friends, their dogs are their soulmate. 
 
Nicole  14:15   
Yeah. Right. I love that so much. And that just goes to show too, because people start to get all concerned of like, oh, there's so many more pet photographers popping up in my market now. Like, that's not a bad thing. That increases the awareness. This is a legitimate thing that people aren't like, hey, it's weird that I'm getting my dog photographed. And then people start searching for hey, let me look and see what pet photographers are out there. And then they start to see and when you dive into that messaging and like figuring out who it is you really want to serve, you're speaking directly to that person and they're not going to hire anyone other than you because you're speaking to them. And I think a lot of people get really scared to get that specific with their messaging, but it doesn't mean like you'll never attract somebody, you know, that doesn't just think their dog is family that maybe is like one step down on that messaging that you're going to, you know, that they're just like, yeah, the dog sleeps on the bed, but maybe, you know, it's just, it's just slightly slightly not that main person you're targeting, like, they still very well might book you. It doesn't mean that you've like said no to everybody else.  
 
Angela 15:27   
Absolutely, absolutely, and I have my list of Nevers. 
 
Nicole  15:31   
Yeah. Oh, that's a good conversation to is to have that. That that no list. 
 
Angela 15:39   
 Yeah, it isn't just weddings and newborns. Jesus Christ, don't let me near a baby. But I am never going to do a studio shot. I thought it was going to do studio work. I had the lighting. I had those cheap setups that you get on Amazon for about 50 bucks with a continuous lighting. That's absolute crap. Don't buy that crap. I'm never going to do studio. I'm never going to do powder shots. People stop putting dogs in unsafe conditions. I am never, you know, I have my list of networks. I am still going to get people who don't want to do great epic adventures. I still want to serve that market. But what I am marketing is epic adventures. Yeah, it gets complicated when I throw in the end of life stuff. Because how do I message that? And that's my journey this year is marrying the end of life stuff with the epic adventure stuff. 
 
Nicole  16:48   
Well, yeah, I think there's an angle there of you know. Oh, I'm even thinking like one last epic adventure with your dog. Even if you can't be out hiking, you know what I mean? Like, you can still be like, hey, you know, here's all these things that you've always done. Yeah. Like, let's let's remember this, even if we can't go out and do it now kind of thing. So I think that's an  ..Yeah. Gosh, I was gonna say something else with that too. Oh, question. That's what it was about your end of life like, have you? When did you discover that you wanted to kind of serve that market? Was that when the very beginning when after you lost Shep and you were looking back at your images and was like that from the beginning of starting your pet photography business that you knew you wanted to serve?  
 
Angela 17:36   
Does anybody really get into this business with the idea that they're going to end up shooting dying dogs? 
 
Nicole  17:43   
Right. 
 
Angela Schneider  17:47   
So it wasn't a market that I want it to serve. Yeah, it was a market that I was just naturally serving. I realized in I think, 2018, that 2019, sorry, I realized in 2019, that fully 1/3 of my clients were coming to me for dogs who were in advanced years or diagnosed with a terminal illness. And I started reading about pet loss grief, not even thinking about the fact I had unresolved grief issues from losing Shep, just that I saw this as a market and wanted to be a better service provider to those clients. Because one of the things, especially since I've dived really deep into this subject, people don't know what to say. People find it awkward sometimes to be around people who are in the phase of what I know now to be anticipatory grief. Didn't have a name for that up until about a year ago. And we want to, we want to support our clients and we want to say the right thing, but oftentimes, we don't know what that is. 
 
Nicole  19:23   
And to clarify, the anticipatory grief is someone whose dog they know their days are numbered. So they know that that yeah, they're in the last hurrah. 
 
Angela 19:31   
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And, and sometimes we do say things. And we're well intentioned around saying it, but it doesn't land.  
 
Nicole 
Right. Right.  
 
Angela 
So I wanted to learn about how to support those people. And I started reading a variety of books and this is where the discussion starts to get really tough. Then my mom died. And it will be a year on January 28. And as you can see, it's still difficult. We had a, we had a complicated relationship. We were probably too much alike. Or I was probably too much like my dad and that drove her fucking crazy. And around that same time frame. This other thing popped up. And a photographer on the East Coast was giving away sessions to friends and family who, who had dying dogs. And she's made quite a name for herself, and has developed a network of photographers who want to go out and do this. Or people with cameras. And our friends, it didn't start to affect me directly. But many of our friends on the East Coast started to get inquiries around and live life pet photography. And when people found out they had to pay for these photographers to just show up. And then that they had to expect to pay two grand, $2,500 for artwork afterwards. Those people got really rude. They either ghosted our friends or said some very rude things. And we came together, especially the people who belong to the blogging group that I lead. We came together and had a roundtable discussion on what to do. And we came up with messaging on our websites to add in around end of life pet photography, or, you know, to better promote our memory sessions. But when I got back from Nova Scotia, and the funeral … 
 
Nicole 
Of your mom … 
 
Angela 
Yeah, yeah. I just had this burning in my brain, that there was something else, you know, like, I wanted, I wanted to start focusing on everybody's why. And I offered the idea of doing those interviews to another pet photography podcast, but got shut down really quickly. They didn't want other generated content. So I took Bella on one of our favorite hikes. And for whatever reason, when I'm out hiking in the woods, my brain just empties and then starts to fill up with crazy ideas. 
 
Nicole 
Same, same. 
 
Angela 
And the one thing that got into my head was you left the marketing and communications world because you were sick and tired of building somebody else's dream. And you wanted to build your own dream. So why in the world would you contribute to someone else's podcast when you can just do your own? And I started coming up with ideas. And then the podcast I, you know, I actually started brain dumping everything into a Facebook message to Marika Moffitt. Because I knew that whatever I was coming up with it was checking off all of her boxes. And she would be like, do it, just do it. And then I came up with the idea to how do I how do I build this as a business not just as a podcast to help, right? Pet guardians with pet loss grief, that's, that's what the pet, that's what the podcast was going to be about. But why do anything if you can't make money doing it? So I came up with the idea to build a directory for photographers, pet photographers who want to market pet loss grief, and then teach them how to be better content creators, which is one of the things I'm really good at. So I have the framework for that. And then I have a coaching session with Heather Lahtinen. 
 
Nicole  25:00   
Tthis cannot go well or does it? At the time looks like oh boy. And afterwards you're like oh it's really good. It's like then you get that massage that like they're working that one area like oh my god I'm gonna tell him to stop that really hurts. That really hurts. OK, but now it's good.  
 
Angela 25:27   
Heather said why don't you go become a grief coach? And I was like, what … wait what?  
 
Nicole 
Is that a thing? 
 
Angela 
So I did. I am now a master grief coach certified under Kathy Cheshire, a renowned grief expert and I am a pet loss grief companion certified under Two Hearts Pet Loss Center and Coleen Ellis, who is such an amazing human being. And I am working towards my grief educator certification under renowned grief expert David Kessler, I will be graduating in about three or four weeks. 
 
Nicole  26:11   
Congratulations. 
 
Angela 26:12   
Thank you. And it culminates in me having created my own course to lead pet photographers to be a better service provider for their clients who come to them in the anticipatory grief stages of their pets' lives. 
 
Nicole  26:29   
Yeah, oh my gosh. So I know this has been, you know, because I talk to you regularly and work with you closely at Hair of the Dog and all the things. And I know you've been planning and working on this for, I mean, really a year, but really like nine months of like, I don't I don't think people can appreciate sometimes I mean, any of you guys, actually a lot of you probably can. Because go back to when you first started to think like, hey, I want to build a photography business. Like every minute of your day often is your brain thinking about that project and what's next? And what am I working on? And what how's this going to work? And what about that? And what about this? And I mean, this is no different. Now it's just you have two businesses that you're constantly thinking about. And the one's become even more important, because your brain just can't slow down otherwise, 
 
Angela 27:25   
And I can't go for a walk in the woods right now. Because Bella is recovering from TPLO surgery. 
 
Nicole  27:30   
She'll be better soon. What's her little, her special little? What's it called? Support? 
 
Angela 27:36   
Yes. I am one of those people that has to keep a notebook nearby. Yeah, even for the 2am wake-ups. Because something will strike. 
 
Nicole  27:49   
Yeah, in the 2am wake ups. Like if you don't write it down, within five minutes, it's gone forever. 
 
Angela 27:56   
And then sometimes you wake up in the morning and you're like, what the? No. 
 
Nicole  28:03   
I find that I get some of my most inspired ideas is that like, I usually wake up, you know, because I'm in my mid 40s now so like, my kids like to laugh at me that I can't sleep like all night without having to get up and use the bathroom at some point. And really, it's like I probably could go back to sleep except that I lay there and I'm like, well, you're just gonna have to like, you're gonna get woken up again to have to go to the bathroom soon so you might as well just get up and do it now. Anyway, this is getting to be too much information for a podcast. I find that the time after that and when I like go back to sleep. It's so it's like dream sleep. But still, I guess kind of light enough that I'm waking right back up through it like man, I get some great ideas, not to toot my own horn but like my dreams create some good ideas. And I need to write those down immediately. Because then they're gone. 
 
Angela 
Stop making new businesses, Nicole. 
 
Nicole 
I know I know. I'm not allowed to do that anymore.  
 
Angela 
I hear it from downstairs. No more new businesses, spend time with your family. Who is that? 
 
Nicole 
I hear something. 
 
Angela Schneider  29:17   
I do want people to know that I didn't just launch this course willy nilly, just like you didn't launch willy nilly. I gathered together some founding members, a few of whom have since dropped off but because of time or involvement, desire or what have you, but I initially conducted the grief training for a group of six pet photographers who are my founding members and they also get to contribute to the podcast at onelastnetwork.com. And so since then, Jessica Wasik has started marketing herself as a pet loss grief specialist and her inquiries have doubled. 
 
Nicole  30:03   
Wow. Se's a rock star that one. Shout out to you Jess, if you're listening. 
 
Angela 30:12   
Oh my gosh, her energy. I turn 52 this year, Nicole. 
 
Nicole  30:19   
Oh, I can't send you the Sally O'Malley I'm 50! Saturday Night Live skit. Stretch and kick! Everybody's homework right now is to go to Google right now. Like, pause this podcast, open up your Google or Safari or whatever and search "SNL  I'm 50." You're welcome. OK, anyway.  
 
Angela 30:50   
Too funny. So, my, my certification under Two Hearts came after I created the initial grief training course. And so everything that I learned from Coleen, is now incorporated into the pet loss grief training, and it will evolve again as I continue to learn just as you continue to evolve the academy. But the feedback that I've gotten is that people feel more confident going into their end of life pet photography sessions, that they're not going to say stupid shit and they know how to give a little support. Our training is based around storytelling. And what's called the continuing bonds theory, where, when we create memories, ie epic adventures with our pets, we can use those stories and memories as healing vehicles in the days, months and years following their loss. 
 
Nicole  31:59   
Yeah. I love it. I mean, that makes total sense. You know, you look back on all the great memories for anything, you know. 
 
Angela Schneider  32:09   
For the longest time, I couldn't, I couldn't look at pictures of Shep. I couldn't look at them, especially the ones from his last few months because I am a cli … I am a walking friggin cliche. I have lived in the guilt world around Shep for a very long time. Whenever I would see photos of him from his last few months, I would beat the crap out of myself. I didn't see it. Why was I so stupid not to see it? Why didn't I get them to the vet sooner? Why? How could I blah, blah, blah, right? Just beat the crap out of myself. Oh, I've forgiven myself in so many ways since I started my grief training. 
 
Nicole  32:54   
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not going to change … beating yourself up, it's not going to change anything, 
 
Angela Schneider  32:59   
oh, it's not going to change anything. And, and the guilt is just us. It's, it's having regrets. And if we can, if we can help our clients through those stages, and let them know that what they're going through is normal, and what they're feeling is normal. It can help them get on a path to healing. And maybe not have them exist in the world of guilt that I did for the last eight years. 
 
Nicole  33:37   
Yeah. I love that. I mean, that's a huge, it's a huge service and need to offer. I just had actually a client from, oh, gosh, let's have it in mid, mid teens client. So a client that I had in 2015, probably maybe even 2014, I think probably 2015 their dog had passed away and she sent me an email just this past year, saying that, you know, they lost their dog. And you know, for the longest time she just couldn't look at the photo that we had that she had, you know, upstairs on our wall. But now now she's started to again and she's like, so thankful to have them. You know, so it like goes goes round full circle, you know that you go through that point of and probably it's probably helpful to, to be able to, you know, you don't want to warn your client, hey, this artwork that you just paid a lot of money for at one point, you're not going to want to look at it but you are going to in the future again, like you can't say it like that. But there's definitely ways by understanding how this process works, that you can, you know, set up expectations and just like just serve your client better. 
 
Angela 34:52   
I have a plan to invite when of my pet lost grief specialists, who is also a sales expert to come in and do a workshop with us to help us refine our processes around sales. 
 
Nicole  35:15   
That's huge. Because I hear that as a challenge a lot of times where maybe you did the session, and then you know, maybe the pet passes away before you're able to have the sales session, and then you feel like it's the photographer, it's like it immediately, at least for me goes to like, not that I don't think I'm taking advantage of anyone, but it just, it no longer feels fun. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, God, what are they thinking? Like, you know, they're upset? How are they going to look at these? Are they going to pay me now for pictures? But of course, they're still worth something, you know, it's, all of these things get unlocked in that situation, where we're all just a hot mess. 
 
Angela Schneider  35:58   
And you should still get paid for your work. 
 
Nicole  36:00   
Right? Yeah. 
 
Angela Schneider  36:04   
Keeping in mind that you are providing a service to the client still. And while it may be tempting to give away the farm, you've invested so much in your photography business, that you should get paid. And you have to remember that vets don't do euthanasia for free. The urn that Shep's ashes are sitting in was not free. The cremation was not free, right? None of these things are free. So we shouldn't be expected to do our photography for free. 
 
Nicole  36:52   
Yeah. And I think a lot of that is our own permission. Because a lot of it doesn't even come from the clients expecting things to be free. more from us thinking like, How can I charge someone in this situation for something that I love to do? And like, I want them to have these things. So and it doesn't quote cost me anything. It's just quote my time, you know, and some digital files. So we get all up into the shame guilt spiral of like, Well, who am I to charge them? We are just as important a service as anybody else on that list that you just mentioned. 
 
Angela 37:34   
Tell you what, my time is worth something. Right? 
 
Nicole  37:38   
Agreed. Yes, ma'am.  
 
Angela 37:43   
And I, I don't know, a single one of my member photographers who don't take a little of their profits, and turn it into a gift for those clients. One of the things we really want to stress in a lot of our messaging to is to not wait, yeah, gosh, don't wait until your, your dog has a tumor exploding out of its shoulder. Let's do this when they're young and happy and healthy and bouncy and, and we'll still get together again for your end of life session. Because those, those are vital. They really are those last few days. But gosh, get it done.  
 
Nicole  38:36   
Yeah, I mean, speaking from someone that lost their six year old dog and five days.  
 
Angela Schneider  38:41   
Yeah. Because you never know when it's gonna happen. You don't. And that's the other reason to why it's important for us to charge. We can think that our dog is near his time. But one of our member photographers had her client reach out and say -- I can't remember the dog's actual name, we'll call him Chief because that was the first dog my family ever had … 
 
Nicole  39:14   
That's a good default name. 
 
Angela Schneider  39:18   
Chief is still around. Chief went through chemotherapy and is in remission. Isn't that fantastic? Yeah, it is fantastic. Now, can you imagine if you had done that session for free? So and I'm not saying that, you know, we need to get a deathwatch certificate or something from that. But that's why it's so important that we charge because you don't know. 
 
Nicole  39:52   
I think t's really easy to I think start that off with like, oh, well, I'll just do it this one time. 
 
Angela 40:06   
But one time becomes two times and two times becomes four times … 
 
Nicole  40:07   
Exactly. And you get to the point where you're resentful, and that's no way to serve the client. You know, you don't want to serve a client in that kind of space from a place of resentfulness. 
 
Angela 40:19   
Well, I look at, I look at these people with cameras that are running out and doing these sessions for free. And if they're doing them every weekend, boy, oh, boy, are they going into burnout fast? 
 
Nicole  40:29   
Right? Yeah. And then you can't serve anybody? 
 
Angela 40:32   
Right? You're done. You hate your camera, you throw it out. You get rid of it, like I did. Yeah, in the 2000s. The 2000s. I got rid of it. You know, it doesn't. I mean, it, it is a service. And it's an important service. And the other thing I wanted to mention about it, too, from a business aspect is that I remember how social media disrupted industries. Particularly my two main industries, first journalism, social media has damn near destroyed newspaper journalism. And completely overhauled marketing and communications. So disruption is a good thing. They provide a service to the point where we have to remember that the people who are using their service are not our client. And I learned that from a very smart individual named Nicole Leonard Begley. Not every person is your client. And there was something else there. 
 
Nicole  41:54   
Well, can I just add on to that, to that, it's the same thing is when we see this new company come through, and it's like, Hey, here's free shoots. And $15 digitals in this amount, like, you guys, it's not worth your stress to worry about what anyone else is doing. Period doesn't matter, like does not matter. They're gonna get burnout. Like, their, their quality is not going to be as good. Like, there's going to be something there's always something that you have that is going to be above that and worth charging for. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again, Life moves pretty fast. And I'm just kidding. I just want to go straight into Ferris Bueller there. No, but what was I gonna say? And I'll say it again, oh, I know what it was. There's always room at the top, there is always room for providing a business and a service of unparalleled quality, of great images, beautiful artwork, and just service in being able to connect with your client. I mean, people are busier than ever these days. You know, I feel like we all slowed down during the pandemic. And we're like, oh, this is nice. And then all of a sudden, now it's like 10 speed. We're like, oh, my God, what is happening? And we were used to that, like really slow, like, oh, I have nothing on my calendar for the next five months. Like it's pretty open to every minute being scheduled. So people are busier than ever, and they're willing to pay for someone to deliver them a higher quality service product and take care of all the details for them. 
 
Angela Schneider  43:34   
Total sidebar. Yeah. You know, one of the most important things that pandemic taught me? 
 
Nicole 
What's that? 
 
Angela 
How much I hate bras. 
 
Nicole  43:43   
And buttons on pants. Currently wearing leggings, yes, thank you very much. I have the leggings on because Cami's at daycare on Tuesdays. So I believe the house and drop her off with their trainer. Because we're learning we're learning some things. 
 
Angela Schneider  44:02   
The things we have to one of the ways we have to look at disruption is as an opportunity. 
 
Nicole  44:09   
Oh 100%. 
 
Angela Schneider  44:10   
This is an opportunity for us to look at our industry and our businesses and ask ourselves how should we be messaging our businesses better? Or how should we be providing a better service to help to educate these clients with anticipatory grief for their pets? Educate them on why they should be using a professional pet photographer and learning how to be a better service provider for them by joining One Last Network and taking the grief training. 
 
Nicole  44:50   
Shameless plug. Totally works. Yeah, absolutely. 
 
Angela Schneider  44:56   
It's an opportunity. Thank you. That gal over on the east coast, thank you, because not only has it not only has it … I mean, it's a very small part of what I'm doing now. Mom, my dad and Shep are the primary drivers behind this project.  But thank you for kicking me in the ass. And, and like showing me that this is where I should be. And thank you for showing these teeny little cracks in our industry that we can fill and improve our industry. 
 
Nicole 
I am a firm believer that any disruption is always an opportunity. You might not want to deal with that opportunity right now. But it always is. I think we're gonna see a lot of that rise over the next couple years with all this AI stuff. There's just, it's … people were scared when the digital camera came out when we went from film to digital, then people were scared when like, you know, the moms with the cameras started going then there are people were scared of … there's always some reason that our collective industry and really the whole world for any industry you pick, wants to like run screaming, saying it's all going to end, it's all going to end, we're all doomed. You can, you can think that that's not going to serve you is that actually going to help you compete. Or you can say, Okay, this is the situation. How do I rise above it? How do I invent my business? How do I change my messaging? How do I reach my people that can, you know, really, truly benefit from what I'm offering? There's always a way. 
 
Angela 
People are going to be surprised by this. I am a prolific blogger. I am a writer of 30 plus years. I am so addicted to ChatGPT right now.  
 
Nicole 
Oh my God, me too. When I can't get on I get really sad. 
 
Angela 
I am shameless about throwing topic ideas in there and getting a framework for a blog post. 
 
Nicole 
100%. And then I've been using it for brainstorming to like I still, you know, used to just have to go with the thesaurus. But now I would start there. And then like give me 10 ideas for this. Oh, give me 10 more ideas for this.  
 
Angela 
I am so looking forward to the academy webinar on AI to see where she is going with it. I'm using it already. And I you know, I love ideas.  
 
Nicole  47:45   
Oh, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And the sad part was because recently they just, you know, they've been so busy because everybody's starting to use it. And then I couldn't get my saved ones because like oh look at saving. And then I couldn't get them like, Oh, where did it go. So now I copy and paste anything that I want to hang on to. I'm like, okay, whatever. 
 
Angela Schneider  48:03   
My OneNote is full.  
 
Nicole  48:07   
I would gladly pay for this. Let me pay so I can have access. 
 
Angela 48:12   
My husband is a retired from high tech and his last several years were based in coding artificial intelligence. So he knows all about it. And he all, he has long since been poking at me and going I can write a script to replace you. 
 
Nicole  48:36   
Yes, you can, but it's only good 90% of the way there it still needs some magic. 
 
Angela Schneider  48:43   
I am a part time copy editor at the local newspaper here in Spokane, and he says that he can write a code to replace me. And I looked at him and I go, dude, newspapers are still trying to catch up to 2005, come on now. 
 
Nicole  48:59   
Yeah, you got a while for this one.  
 
Angela  
I think I'm good until at least 2040.  
 
Nicole 
I love it. I love it. Hysterical, man. All right to wrap this up. This has been a fun conversation here. Let's wrap it up. Other than to check out One Last Network for people to come in and, you know, get better at their offerings for serving this type of client. Is there, do you have one or two kind of tips you want to leave somebody with that, you know, is serving this market? 
 
Angela 49:31   
Yes I do. First of all the grief training is available on demand. You do not have to be a member of One Last Network to take the grief training it is more expensive to not be a member and take the grief training. The grief training is $400 to become a platinum member. It is $300 Platinum membership includes grief training. We also offer our Platinum members the opportunity to submit to the podcast. So that also comes with geo exclusivity so that we are not watering down the content. So our Platinum members get to declare their counties. And if someone applies and wants to own that county, they cannot, they will be invited to silver membership instead. And then we'll have to pay extra for the grief training. But my one big tip is to just shut up and listen. When you're at a session with a client who is in the anticipatory grief stage, and this can apply to any session, shut up and listen to your client. Let your client tell their story. This is not about you. One of the, one of the things we often default to when we're talking to people in grief is I am thinking about you. I know when that happened to me, I … no, no, it is not about you. It is about your client. Let your client tell their story. And give them the space to tell that story in a non-judgmental space. I don't expect any of us to be judgmentable … judgmentable, did I just say judgmentable? Judgmental. 
 
Nicole  51:26   
Yeah, whatever. It's all good. We know what you mean. I think I like judgmentable better. 
 
Angela 51:27   
I don't expect any of us to be judgmental either around pet loss grief. We all understand that we shouldn't be saying, "Well, what are you worried about? It's just a dog." 
 
Nicole  51:46   
Right? None of us would actually say that. 
 
Angela 51:50   
Honestly, I will punch any pet photographer in the throat who dares to say that. But they do have people in their lives who may have said inappropriate things to them. So give them an open, compassionate, non judgmental space to tell their story and leave yours at home for an hour. That's all. 
 
Nicole  52:13   
Yeah. I love it. Is there a way like when they're telling their story that you can support them and basically say like, Hey, I get it. I've had that to without hijacking it for your story. 
 
Angela Schneider  52:28   
Yes. And you can learn all about that in the grief training on OneLastNetwork.com. 
 
Nicole  52:34   
Are you gonna leave us hanging like that? 
 
Angela Schneider  52:42   
Nicole, I can't give away the farm. 
 
Nicole  52:46   
All right, all right. Well, Angela, this has been a great conversation. And I know that a lot of our people find it super helpful. So you guys, go check it out. Onelastnetwork.com, Angela, your photography is bigwhitedogphotography.com.  
 
Angela 
It is.  
 
Nicole 
Yeah. Perfect. And yeah, so go connected, that you can connect on Instagram, what are your Instagram handles? 
 
Angela Schneider  53:10   
@bigwhitedogphotography and @onelastnetwork and all of this information will be in the show notes that I write. 
 
Nicole  53:19   
That's right. Thank you.  
 
Angela 
That's my other part-time job.  
 
Nicole 
Because spoiler alert, spoiler alert. You guys would never get an email from me if I had to write it. So yeah, if you guys want your emails on Tuesday, this is what happens. So write a good one here, Angela. No pressure, no pressure. It's only your podcast interview.  
 
Angela 
Whiskey first.  
 
Nicole 
I love it. All right, everybody, we will see you next week. Have a good week. Thanks for listening to the Hair of the Dog podcast. This was episode number 176. If you want to check out the show notes for access to any of the resources we mentioned, simply go to www.hairofthedogacademy.com/176. 
 
Thanks for listening to this episode of hair of the dog podcast. If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to leave a review. And while you're there, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes. One last thing. If you are ready to dive into more resources, head over to our website at www.hairofthedogacademy.com. Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community.