In today's episode, we're chatting with Carrie Jordan from fur and Fables photography in the United Kingdom. Carrie had a successful pet photography portrait session, but then she moved and she decided to go all into her commercial pet photography experiences and she hasn't looked back. She absolutely loves it. So whether you're serving private clients, commercial clients, a little bit of both, not sure if you want to dip your toe into the commercial world.

I'm Nicole Begley, a zoological animal trainer turned pet and family photographer. Back in 2010, I embarked on my own adventure in photography, transforming a bootstrapping startup into a thriving six figure business by 2012. Since then, my mission has been to empower photographers like you, sharing the knowledge and strategies that have helped me help thousands of photographers build their own profitable businesses. I believe that achieving two to $3,000 sales is your fastest route to six figure businesses, that any technically proficient photographer can consistently hit four figure sales.

No matter what you're doing, if you're photographing pets or even people, you're going to want to take a listen to this episode. It's a good one. Stay tuned. I'm Nicole Bagley, a zoological animal trainer turned pet and family photographer. Back in 2010, I embarked on my own adventure in photography, transforming a bootstrapping startup into a thriving six figure business by 2012. Since then, my mission has been to empower photographers like you, sharing the knowledge and strategies that have helped me help thousands of photographers build their own profitable businesses.

And no matter if you want photography to be your full time passion or a part time pursuit, profitability is possible. If you're a portrait photographer aspiring to craft a business that aligns perfectly with the life you envision, then you're in exactly the right place. With over 350,000 downloads. Welcome to the Freedom Focus Photography podcast. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Freedom Focus Photography podcast. Your host, Nicole Bagley.

I believe that achieving two to $3,000 sales is your fastest route to six figure businesses. That any technically proficient photographer can consistently hit four figure sales. And no matter if you want photography to be your full time passion or a part time pursuit, profitability is possible. If you're a portrait photographer aspiring to craft a business that aligns perfectly with the life you envision, then you're in exactly the right place.

And today we have a special guest from across the pond. We have Kerry Jordan from fur and Fables photography. She is based in the UK. And Kerry, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm super excited to be here. I've been such a fan of hair of the dog for so many years, so I'm a little bit fangirly right now. I'll stop, it's gonna be so fun.

With over 350,000 downloads. Welcome to the Freedom Focus Photography podcast. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Freedom Focus Photography podcast. I'm your host, Nicole Bagley, and today we have a special guest from across the pond. We have Kerry Jordan from fur and Fables photography. She is based in the UK. And Carrie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you you here. I'm super excited to be here.

I'm fangirling over you because like your website is so beautiful and just hearing all the great stuff you've been doing just makes me really happy. So, so excited to have you here to chat about all the things. First of all, I guess to get started, why don't you give us a little background? Well, actually, 1st first of all, where are you in the UK? What part of what part of the country?

So I am in, I'm west of the UK and I'm in a place called West Cumbria, which means many people don't know even in the UK. But if I say the Lake district, I'm just on the borders of the Lake district in the UK. So I am sorry. Surrounded by fells and lakes, but then just on the other side, equal distance away, I've got the sea. So although it sounds beautiful, the weather is fairly challenging.

I've been such a fan of hair of the dog for so many years, so I'm a little bit fangirly right now. I'll stop. It's so fun. I'm fan girling over you because like your website is so beautiful and just hearing all the great stuff you've been doing just makes me really happy. So, so excited to have you here to chat about all the things. First of all, I guess to get started, why don't you give us a little background?

Sometimes people say awesome, I hear it's gorgeous there. I have not been to that part. I need to get over. I've come. Definitely do. If you get the weather right, the light is beautiful here and if you get the weather right, yeah, the landscape is pretty spectacular. Yeah, well, gorgeous. I love it. Yeah. I grew up and lived for a long time in Pittsburgh, which, I mean, I wouldn't say is maybe quite as rainy, but certainly quite as cloudy as you guys would have, which was really funny.

Well, actually, 1st first of all, where are you in the UK? What part of the country? So I am in, I'm west of the UK and I'm in a place called West Cumbria, which many people don't know even in the UK. But if I say the lake district. I'm just on the borders of the Lake district in the UK, so I am surrounded by fells and lakes, but then just on the other side, equal distance away, I've got the sea.

So although it sounds beautiful, weather is fairly challenging sometimes. Awesome. I hear it's gorgeous there. I have not been to that part. I need to get over. I've come. Definitely do. If you get the weather right, the light is beautiful here, and if you get the weather right. Yeah, the landscape is pretty spectacular. Yeah, well, gorgeous. I love it. Yeah. I grew up and lived for a long time in Pittsburgh, which, I mean, I wouldn't say it's maybe quite as rainy, but certainly quite as cloudy as you guys would have, which was really funny.

When I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina. Oh, gosh, it's been almost six years now. I was just like, the sun is out all the time. I almost had to change how I shot because I just was not used to having this much sun I complete. I had almost the opposite. So I actually grew up in the north of the UK and then moved down south into west Sussex for like 20 years.

And down there it can easily be sort of seven or eight degree difference. And it's sunny and it's quite dry. And so coming back up north was a huge shock to the system. I was wondering what the heck I did the first winter. Like, wait a minute, was this a good idea? Well, tell us a little bit about how you got into photography and specifically dog photography. So it's convoluted, so I'll try and keep it short.

When I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina. Oh, gosh, it's been almost six years now. I was just like, ugh, the sun is out all the time. Like, I almost had to, like, change how I shot because I just was not used to having this much sun. I completely. I had almost the opposite. So I actually grew up in the north of the UK and then moved down south into West Sussex for like, 20 years.

So at school, I always enjoyed art, but I grew up in an area where it was one of those things where you were either going to work in an office or a shop or a hotel, service industry, that kind of thing. There wasn't really anybody who would champion going into any kind of art type, art type career. So I started doing the usual thing of going into an office.

And down there it can easily be sort of seven or eight degree difference. And it's sunny and it's quite dry. And so coming back up north was a huge shock to the system. I was wondering what the heck I did the first winter. Like, wait a minute, was this a good idea? Well, tell us a little bit about how you got into photography and specifically dog photography. So it's convoluted, so I'll try and keep it short.

I started out as an office junior, worked my way up to office manager, Pa, personal assistant to like CEO's and mds, moved down south and did the same in the city. So I, you know, helped organize other people. And I kind of always had this feeling that I still had this creative outlet that I wasn't really getting rid of. And this was before, like, mobile phones had cameras.

So, at school, I always enjoyed art, but I grew up in an area where it was one of those things where you were either going to work in an office or a shop or a hotel service industry, that kind of thing. There wasn't really anybody who would champion going into any kind of art type, art type career. So I started doing the usual thing of going into an office.

So it was a while ago, and I used to go out with my friends with just one of those little disposable point and shoe cameras that, you know, you had to get developed and things like that. And just gradually I wanted to take better photos. I wanted to have things that I could actually, you know, frame and put in a actual photo albums and things like that. So I got a little point and shoot, and I just started, like, practicing on that.

I started out as a office junior, worked my way up to office manager, Pa, personal assistant to, like, CEO's and mds, moved down south and did the same in the city. So I, you know, helped organize other people. And I kind of always had this feeling that I still had this creative outlet that I wasn't really getting rid of. And this was before, like, mobile phones had cameras.

And I eventually just went up to a digital SLR. And I can't remember what it was. I think it was like a Nikon D 40 or something with just a kit lens, but it was a zoom. And I did a post about this recently, actually, where I vividly remember the time that I just was hooked. And it was. It was just a tulip it was just a tulip, but it was a beautifully formed tulip.

So it was a while ago, and I used to go out with my friends with just one of those little disposable point and shoot cameras that, you know, you had to get developed and things like that. And just gradually I wanted to take better photos. I wanted to have things that I could actually, you know, frame and put in actual photo albums and things like that. So I got a little point and shoot, and I just started, like, practicing on that.

And I zoomed right in and I got that really blurry background and I looked at the back of the camera and I was like, that's it. I was like, oh, I can't believe that this is what you can do with a camera. So it just sort of steamrolled from there. And so this must have been maybe 14 years ago. And I just thought, as a photographer, if you wanted to make money from photography, it had to be weddings.

And I eventually just went up to a digital SLR and I can't remember what it was. I think it was like a Nikon D 40 or something with just a kit lens and. But it was a zoom. And I did a post about this recently, actually, where I vividly remember the time that I just was hooked and it was just a tulip. It was just a tulip, but it was a beautifully formed tulip.

So I started doing wedding photography and doing second shooting and then little side hustles of food, photography, gig photography, you know, portraits, that kind of thing. Got a bit disheartened with wedding photography, as I'm sure a lot of people, if they've shopped weddings, will know their long days. And, you know, I wasn't earning a huge amount then. It was the time afterwards editing, you know, having to do the sales afterwards.

And I zoomed right in and I got that really blurry background and I looked at the back of the camera and I was like, that's it. I was like, oh, I can't believe that this is what you can do with a camera. So just sort of steamrolled from there. And so this must have been maybe 14 years ago. And I just thought as a photographer, if you wanted to make money from photography, it had to be weddings.

The sales was always a sticking point for me, you know, this sort of upselling of the albums and things like that. So I kind of started doing family portraits and actually, I found that a little bit easier. I got quite good at that. And then I got my first dog and he was a little whippet called Scout and started taking photographs of him, just, you know, just for fun, set up a little page for, like, for him.

So I started doing wedding photography and doing second shooting and then little side hustles of food, photography, gig photography, you know, portraits, that kind of thing. Got a bit disheartened with wedding photography, as I'm sure a lot of people, if they've shot weddings, will know they're long days. And, you know, I wasn't earning a huge amount then. It was the time afterwards editing, you know, having to do the sales afterwards.

And, yeah, just, I loved just going out with him and just experimenting with the light and, you know, this was my time. And then people started asking me for commissions. Way back then, in the UK in particular, dog photography wasn't a really big thing, so I had no clue that that was something that I could earn money from. So I was like, sure, I can do that. And it got to the point where I had to make a decision.

The sales was always a sticking point for me after, you know, this sort of upselling of the albums and things like that. So I kind of started doing family portraits and actually, I found that a little bit easier. I got quite good at that. And then I got my first dog and he was a little whippet called Scout and started taking photographs of him, just, you know, just for fun, set up a little page for, like, for him.

I was at a business conference and I had a mastermind and somebody said to me, I was like, I come up with this new brand name, fur and fables, and I was like, oh, you know, I'm going to be shooting, you know, families and pets. And the people on the masterclass said, stop confusing people. You need to shine the spotlight on one thing because otherwise they're going to come to the website and you're not going to be a specialist in one thing.

And, yeah, just, I loved just going out with him and just experimenting with the light and, you know, this was my time. And then people started asking me for commissions. Way back then. In the UK in particular, dog photography wasn't a really big thing. So I had no clue that that was something that I could earn money from. So I was like, sure, I can do that. And it got to the point where I had to make a decision.

And, you know, it might just look like you're a bit of a jack of all trades. And they said, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to photograph dogs. It was. But I just didn't know that I could do that. Do you remember when that was approximately what year? That must have been maybe six or seven years ago. Oh, well, no, actually it wasn't, because fear and fables.

I was at a business conference and I had a mastermind and somebody said to me, I was like, I come up with this new brand name fur and fables. And I was like, oh, you know, I'm going to be shooting, you know, families and pets. And. And the people on the masterclass said, stop confusing people. You need to shine the spotlight on one thing because otherwise they're going to come to the website and you're not going to be a specialist in one thing.

I started fear and fables about five years ago, so it's probably just before that. Okay. And, well, that's when my branding and everything. Mid teens. Mid teens ish. Somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah. Because I just started the rebranding, so it hadn't fully sort of, you know, come up as a. A whole brand yet. So, yeah, I was like, okay, right, I'm going to do this. So I did.

And, you know, it might just look like you're a bit of a jack of all trades. And they said, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to photograph dogs. It was. But I just didn't know that I could do that. Do you remember when that was? Approximately what year? That must have been maybe six or seven years ago. Okay. Oh, well, no, actually it wasn't, because fear and fables.

And, you know, I won, I think, the first year, I just adopted another dog. I won one of the seats on the kennel club's dog photographer of the year. Like, I think it was second place for dogs in play or something. But that was a fair few years ago. And so I kind of built an audience. Again, it wasn't. Dog photography wasn't a huge things. So I was building this really lovely audience.

I started fear and fables about five years ago, so it's probably just before that. Okay. And, well, that's when my branding and everything. Mid teens ish somewhere around there. Yeah. Because I just started the rebranding, so it hadn't fully sort of, you know, come up as a whole brand yet. So, yeah, I was like, okay, right, I'm going to do this. So I did. And, you know, I won, I think, the first year, I just adopted another dog.

They were really engaged. It was all organic, both on Facebook and Instagram. And I've just started getting more and more bookings. And I was easily shooting. I was looking back at some of the galleries. You know, I was easily shooting two or three a week, most in the. In the nice season, because we have very distinct seasons and, yeah, and then I used to do charity work and things like that.

I won one of the seats on the kennel club's dog photographer of the year. Like, I think it was a second place for dogs in play or something, but that was a fair few years ago. And so I kind of built an audience. Again, it wasn't. Dog photography wasn't a huge thing. So I was building this really lovely audience. They were really engaged. It was all organic, both on Facebook and Instagram.

So, yeah, that's how I kind of got there. And I had a really good client base in Sussex and then I moved. And Cumbria is very different. It's a very different geographic. You know, there's a lot of farming, whereas Sussex is very much, you know, 2.4 kids, you know, the four x. Four big houses kind of thing. And that I moved three years ago. Well, just under three years ago.

And I've just started getting more and more bookings. And I was easily shooting. I was looking back at some of the galleries, you know, I was easily shooting two or three a week. Oh, wow. Most in the nice season. Cause we have very distinct seasons and, yeah, and then I used to do charity work and things like that. So, yeah, that's how I kind of got there. And I had a really good client base in Sussex, and then I moved.

And I was finding it really, really tough. But, yeah, so that's how I got to where I was with dog photography. That's awesome. So when you moved three years ago, well, actually, when did you decide to kind of niche even more into commercial? And are you doing only. Are you still doing private clients or you're just doing commercial at this point? I am. I'm doing private clients, if people ask me, which they still do, but I don't advertise it and I don't push it.

And Cumbria is very different. It's a very different geographic. You know, there's a lot of farming, whereas Sussex is very much, you know, 2.4 kids, you know, the four by four big houses kind of thing and that. I moved three years ago. Well, just under three years ago. And I was finding it really, really tough. But, yeah, so that's how I got to where I was with dog photography.

So it was because of the move, basically. That's how I niched down. So I basically, I separated from my partner and I moved up this way because the house prices were really good. But I just didn't think about the fact that the market might be so different. It took me about three or four years to build up a really good client base in Sussex. And then I completely forgot the fact that I have to have three or four years and I didn't have that much time.

That's awesome. So when you moved three years ago? Well, actually, when did you decide to kind of niche even more into commercial? And are you doing only, are you still doing private clients or you're just doing commercial at this point? I'm doing private clients, if people ask me, which they still do, but I don't advertise it and I don't push it. So it was because of the move, basically, that's how I niched down.

You know, I wasn't the main breadwinner. I had to start standing on my own 2ft after 22 years. So I had to change things and I had to change things quickly. And it was, I think it must have been at the start of last year when the hair of the dog commercial academy came up and I'd already been doing a few commercial shoots organically. So people were just coming to me and saying, can you shoot my brand?

So basically I've separated from my partner and I moved up this way because the house prices were really good. But I just didn't think about the fact that the market might be so different. It took me about three or four years to build up a really good client base in Sussex. And then I completely forgot the fact that I have to have three or four years and I didn't have that much time.

And I'm going to be honest, I was like, do I need this if I've, you know, if I've already got people coming to me organically. Right. And I just thought I need to elevate and I need to scale quickly, so I'm going to do it. So I enrolled on the course and did the. Was it like twelve weeks? I think, yes. Yeah, yeah. About eight calls, I think, over twelve weeks.

I wasn't the main breadwinner. I had to start standing on my own 2ft after 22 years. So I had to change things and I had to change things quickly. And I think it must have been at the start of last year when the hair of the dog commercial academy came up and I'd already been doing a few commercial shoots organically. So people were just coming to me and saying, can you shoot my brand?

Yeah. And that took me to, I don't know, I think maybe July or something. And then based on that workings, I started to get clients pretty much immediately. And so by October I was like, right, I'm pivoting. And I just made the cuts, I made the announcement. I was going to honour anybody who'd already booked in or who had vouchers. And I was like, I'm putting my cards on the table.

And I'm going to be honest, I was like, do I need this if I've, you know, if I've already got people coming to me organically. Right. And I just thought, I need to elevate and I need to scale quickly, so I'm going to do it. So I enrolled on the course and did the. Was it like twelve weeks? Yes. Yeah, yeah. About eight calls, I think, over twelve weeks.

This is what I'm going to be doing. And I haven't looked back. It's, it's, yeah, it's been awesome. That's fantastic. What were you feeling at that time when you were trying to make that decision? Like, because I know it's like a way in, like, oh, I want to do this, but like, there's also this like devil on your shoulder of like, are you crazy? You're going to cut off so much more.

Yeah. And that took me to, I don't know, maybe July or something. And then based on that workings, I started to get clients pretty much immediately. And so by October, I was like, right, I'm pivoting and I just made the cuts, I made the announcement. I was going to honor anybody who'd already booked in or who had vouchers. And I was like, I'm putting my cards on the table.

You're going to starve, you're going to lose your house, you're going to live on the street. Like, what was that? Like that basically. And there was never, it never crossed my mind. Just for the podcast, I'm doing this in inverted commas to get a real job. For some reason, I just knew that I had to make this work. So, yeah, it was terrifying because I've never been in a position, I've been with my partner since I was like 19.

This is what I'm going to be doing. And I haven't looked back. Yeah, it's been awesome. That's fantastic. What were you feeling at that time when you were trying to make that decision? Because I know it's a way in, like, oh, I want to do this, but there's also this devil on your shoulder of like, are you crazy? You're going to cut off so much more. You're going to starve, you're going to lose your house.

I'd never been in a position where I had to push myself this hard to make sure that I could pay my bills and feed my dogs. So, yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. But equally, I'm a big believer in gut instinct and trusting your intuition. To a certain extent. There was something inside me that was just switched on to this. I think one of the things as well was, even with pet photography, even though I've been doing it for a fair amount of time, I was never comfortable with the sales.

You're going to live on the street. Like, what was that? Like that basically. And there was never, it never crossed my mind. Just for the podcast, I'm doing this in inverted commas to get a real job. For some reason, I just knew that I had to make this work. So, yeah, it was terrifying because I've never been in a position, I've been with my partner since I was like 19.

And I've done sales courses, I've done training courses, I've had coaching. But the upsell always, there was something that was resistant to. I'd done in house, I'd done online, I'd gone to people's homes. I tried the works, and I still didn't feel comfortable with it. When I started doing the commercial pet photography and did the kind of steps that you guys recommended, I felt comfortable. I was more than happy selling these services.

I'd never been in a position where I had to push myself this hard to make sure that I could pay my bills, feed my dogs. So, yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. But equally, I'm a big believer in, like, gut instinct and trusting your intuition to a certain extent. There was something inside me that was just switched on to this. I think one of the things as well was, even with pet photography, even though I've been doing it for a fair amount of time, I was never comfortable with the sales.

And to me, it was like, you've already bought me. I don't have to do any upselling. This is awesome. So I felt really, really comfortable with it. So I thought, if this feels right, then I'm going to be. It's going to come across that way when, you know, when I'm selling, it's going to, you know, I have the enthusiasm for it, so, yeah, I didn't, I haven't got a backup plan.

And I've done sales courses, I've done training courses, I've had coaching. But the upsell always, there was something that was, I was resistant to. I'd done in house, I'd done online, I'd, you know, I'd gone to people's homes, I tried the works, and I still didn't feel comfortable with it. When I started doing the commercial pet photography and did the, the kind of steps that you guys recommended, I felt comfortable.

Yeah, make this work. I know. That's, that's true. When, when your back's against the wall and you're like, well, this has to work, or I have to go get, like, a nine to five job. And we all know once we've had the taste of not having that, that's not on the table. And we were like, I will do anything. I will show my feet on onlyfans if I have to.

I was more than happy selling these services. And to me, it was like, you've already bought me. I don't have to do any upselling. This is awesome. So I felt really, really comfortable with it. So I thought, if this feels right, then I'm going to be. It's going to come across that way. When, you know, when I'm selling, it's going to, you know, I have the enthusiasm for it.

I'm not going back. I do not think I get very much money for that. I hike too much. Actually, my friend at the, at the stables and I have a, have just a running joke. We're like, can we sell, like, pictures of our horses feet? Is there, like, a market for, like, only hooves that we can use to pay for them? Because that would be really helpful. I honestly really hope not to see the world as a good place.

So, yeah, I didn't, I haven't got a backup plan. Yes, I have to make this work. I know that's, that's true. When, when your backs against the wall and you're like, well, this has to work, or I, or I have to go get like a nine to five job. And we all know once we've had the taste of not having that, that's not on the table. And we were like, I will do anything.

I will show my feet on onlyfans if I have to. I'm not going back. I do not think I get very much money for that. I hike too much. Actually, my friend at the, at the stables and I have a, have a disarray joke. We're like, can we sell like, pictures of our horses feet. Is there, like, a market for, like, only. Only hooves that we can use to pay for them?

Yeah, I'm glad that that's where that went. Sorry. Sorry. I did tell you. I did warn you we might go off on tangents. And there you go. We got to keep the people at home entertained and keep them on their literal pose, not knowing what's going to come out next. So, yeah, I'm going to. I'm really going to have to restrain myself from googling, if that's a thing.

Yeah, no, be careful. At least do it. I don't want that on my cell phone. Okay. But, yeah, no, that's a really good point, though, about, like, when you have to do it and there's a lot to unpack here. Then. Also the piece about the fear of niching down. I know I went through that same thing in about 2015 when I stopped photographing families and I went all in on pets because the families were just rolling in the door.

Because that would be really helpful. I honestly really hope not to see the world as a good place. Yeah, I'm glad that that's where that went. Sorry. Sorry. I did tell you. I did warn you we might go off on tangents. And there you go. We got to keep the people at home entertained and keep them on their literal pose, not knowing what's going to come out next.

I didn't market for them and I didn't hate it. I liked it, I didn't dislike it, and it was easy, but I only had so much time, and I knew if I wanted to grow the side that I loved, that I needed to cut back on something. So it's terrifying. But, man, if you have that. That desire, I think there's a reason for it. You know, I think the reason with the pets as well, for me, it was a little bit easier because I don't have kids.

I'm really going to have to restrain myself from googling, if that's a thing. Yeah, no, be careful. At least do it. I don't want that. Okay. But, yeah, no, that's a really good point, though, about, like, when you have to do it, there's a lot to unpack here then. Also the piece about the fear of niching down. I know I went through that same thing in about 2015 when I stopped photographing families and I went all in on pets because the families were just rolling in the door.

So I wasn't. For some reason, I was still getting bookings, but I wasn't in that world. You know, I wasn't at the school gates with the mums or, you know, doing the playdates and things like that, whereas with the dogs, it was. This was my world, you know, I knew what I was talking about. I was connecting with Bradley, you know, I was talking about, like, on my photography pages, I'd be talking about, like, you know, the colors that, you know, I like and I found and the toys and the, you know, the nutrition and things like that.

I didn't market for them, and I didn't hate it. I liked it. I didn't dislike it, and it was easy, but I only had so much time, and I knew if I wanted to grow the side that I loved that I needed to cut back on something. So it's terrifying. But, man, if you have that desire, I think there's a reason for it. I think the reason with the pets as well, for me, it was a little bit easier because I don't have kids.

So it was. I could talk about this. I could talk about this all day, and I think that's why it became more of a community rather than just a photography page. So, yeah, that. That transition was a little bit easier, but again, in the UK, it wasn't huge. So it was that fear of the unknown and sort of stepping into something that wasn't very big back then. Yeah, I know it's a catch 22 because you're like, oh, it's not very big.

So I wasn't, for some reason, I was still getting bookings, but I wasn't in that world. You know, I wasn't at the school gates with the mums or, you know, doing the playdates and things like that, whereas with the dogs, it was. This was my world, you know, I. I knew what I was talking about. I was connecting with brands. You know, I was talking about, like, on my photography pages, I'd be talking about, like, you know, the colors that, you know, I like and I found and the toys and the, you know, the nutrition and things like that.

So, like, the market's wide open, but also it's not very big, so no one knows it exists yet. So you have to, like, build that awareness before people actually book. So. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned building kind of community. What did that. What did that look like for your pet photography? Was it, um, just kind of through a blog or social media or did you have something else to really kind of connect with all those dog people?

So it was. I could talk about this. I could talk about this all day, and I think that's why it became more of a community rather than just a photography page. So, yeah, that. That transition was a little bit easier, but again, in the UK, it wasn't huge. So it was that fear of the unknown and sort of stepping into something that wasn't. Wasn't very big back then.

It was mostly, I had an email list. I have an email list and. But social media, um, I know a lot of people find it tricky. I think I've been incredibly lucky, or, um, it's just because I overshare. So I. I know there's. I, because I'm on a lot of business memberships, I know that people are quite fearful of putting themselves out there on their business page, but that's.

Yeah, I know it's a catch 22, because you're like, oh, it's not very big. So, like, the market's wide open, but also it's not very big, so no one knows exists yet. So you have to like, build that awareness before people actually book. So, yeah, yeah. You mentioned building kind of community. What did that, what did that look like for your pet photography? Was it just kind of through a blog or social media or did you have something else to really kind of connect with all those dog people?

I did that constantly. So it was, you know, me walking the dogs, you know, having jokes about the stuff that we, like, have as a dog owner. You know, how many poo bags you use on a walk and how many times you use one poo bag so you don't have to use multiples and things like that. And it was just, it was asking questions that I would have like to talk about myself.

It was mostly, I had an email list. I have an email list and. But social media, I know a lot of people find it tricky. I think I've been incredibly lucky, or it's just because I overshare. So I know there's. I. Because I'm on a lot of business memberships. I know that people are quite fearful of putting themselves out there on their business page, but that's. I did that constantly.

So it was very much around, yeah, just the dog community. So it wasn't me just going, here's a pretty picture, or here's a before and after. You know, it was, it was engaging people. It was asking people about their dogs and their lives and, you know, and bringing them into mine. For some reason, they found it interesting. But, yeah, it's. And I've. Even though I've pivoted now, I've still got this lovely audience who are always encouraging me and saying, it's really lovely to see the journey and things like that.

So it was, you know, me walking the dogs, you know, having jokes about the stuff that we like, have as a dog owner, you know, how many poo bags you use on a walk and how many times you use one poo bag so you don't have to use multiples and things like that. And it was just, it was asking questions that I would like to talk about myself.

So, yeah, that's how it kind of came about. I love it that there's a reason why I think all these reality shows and, you know, are popular, because people like to see a little peek behind the curtain and, you know, the end of the day, all of us are running basically personal brands unless we have a big studio with a whole bunch of associate shooters. I mean, you're your brand.

So it was very much around, yeah, just the dog community. So it wasn't me just going, here's a pretty picture, or here's a before and after. You know, it was. It was engaging people. It was asking people about their dogs and their lives and, you know, and bringing them into mine. For some reason, they found it interesting. But, yeah, it's. And I've. Even though I've pivoted now, I've still got this lovely audience who are always encouraging me and saying, it's really lovely to see the journey and things like that.

So if we're able to show up in a way that, you know, connects with people because people do business with people they know, like and trust, then, you know, that's really helpful. Whether it's social media or your email list or a podcast or Facebook group or whatever it is, I think that's that piece that helps. And whether you're doing private clients or commercial, it's still the same kind of thing of connections with people.

So, yeah, that's how it kind of came about. I love it that there's a reason why I think all these reality shows are popular, because people like to see a little peek behind the curtain. And the end of the day, all of us are running basically personal brands. Unless we have a big studio with a whole bunch of associate shooters, you're your brand. If we're able to show up in a way that, you know, connects with people, because people do business with people they know, like and trust, then, you know, that's really helpful.

Yeah, I love it. I also want to dive back about the sales piece. What is it about, if you had to guess, like, because you're reluctant to do upsells or you feel yucky about it, what is it about that that makes you feel icky? I've thought a lot about this because I'm quite into sort of psychology and how the brain works. And. And I think it's two things, possibly.

Whether it's social media or your email list or a podcast or Facebook group or whatever it is, I think that's that piece that helps. And whether you're doing private clients or commercial. It's still the same kind of thing of connections with people. Yeah, I love it. I also want to dive back about the sales piece. What is it about? If you had to guess, like, because you're reluctant to do upsells or you feel yucky about it, what is it about that that makes you feel icky?

One is my background I grew up with. We had to put 50 p in the electric meter. We were worried about paying the bills all the time. And I think that became a barrier for me for buying anything that I didn't feel was something that is necessary. You know, upselling art is kind of a luxury in my head, even though I know that the people will treasure this beautiful piece of artwork and, you know, it's their family, that kind of thing.

I've thought a lot about this because I'm quite into sort of psychology and how the brain works, and I. And I think it's two things, possibly. One is my background I grew up with. We had to put 50 p in the electric meter. We were worried about paying the bills all the time. And I think that became a barrier for me for buying anything that I didn't feel was something that is necessary.

I couldn't get over that barrier of, I'm asking people, because I would do that for free if I could. Like, I totally do pet photography for free if I could. And it was getting over that barrier of, yeah. Asking people to give me money for something that I didn't see as the necessity. I think it was just my. Yeah, my psychology, my history and then that. I think that was the other thing.

You know, upselling art is kind of a luxury in my head, even though I know that the people will treasure this beautiful piece of artwork and, you know, it's their family, that kind of thing. I couldn't get over that barrier of, I'm asking people because I would do that for free if I could. Like, I totally do pet photography for free if I could. And it was getting over that barrier of.

It was the fact that I see it as a luxury, and I couldn't get over my personal views on that, and I wanted people to want it, and they did buy, but I just didn't push it. Yeah, there's quite a lot of history, I think, with regards to money, which is why I had that barrier. Yeah, no, that's. I think you're right. Our early years are definitely very forming of what we think and carries with us for a long time.

Yeah. Asking people to give me money for something that I didn't see as the necessity. I think it was just my. Yeah, my psychology, my history and then that. I think that was the other thing. It was the fact that I see it as a luxury, and I couldn't get over my personal views on that. And I wanted people to want it, and they did buy, but I just didn't push it.

I'm just curious, with the commercial piece, is there a difference, too? Where now, private clients you're selling to an individual, where is it easier for you to sell to a business? Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. I do love that you figured this out, and you're going full into what. What you feel more comfortable with. And that is, we do actually hear that quite a bit from our students in the commercial course.

Yeah, there's quite a lot of history, I think, with regards to money, which is why I have that barrier. Yeah, no, that's. I think you're right. Our early years are definitely very forming of what we think and carries with us for a long time. I'm just curious, with the commercial piece, is there a difference, too? Where now, private clients you're selling to an individual, where is it easier for you to sell to a business?

They're like, I didn't expect it actually to be easier psychologically for me to sell to a business than it is to sell to another person. And I think that's because we have so much baggage of our own money baggage from how we grew up or how we didn't grow up or, you know, what someone said or just what we see on the news and, like, the vilifying of things that we said.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. I do love that you figured this out and you're going full into what. What you feel more comfortable with. And that is. We do actually hear that quite a bit from our students in the commercial course. They're like, I didn't expect it actually to be easier psychologically for me to sell to a business than it is to sell to another person. And I think that's because we have so much baggage of our own money.

And we're just like, oh, we don't want people to think that we are slimy, gross salesmen, like, trying to get every bit of money out of them or, like, selling things that they don't want. I think the other thing, too, that you started to say, hold on, let's just escape me for a second. There was the luxury piece, and then. Oh, gosh, what was it? Necessity. Yes. Yeah.

Baggage from how we grew up or how we didn't grow up or, you know, what someone said or just what we see on the news and, like, the vilifying of things that we said. And we're just like, oh, we don't want people to think that we are slimy, gross salesmen, like, trying to get every bit of money out of them or like, selling things that they don't want.

Well, there is. Yeah, the necessity. I think there is another piece of it, too. But question for you is just because something is luxury, does that mean that it shouldn't, like, the people shouldn't buy it if they can? No, absolutely not. As I think. Yeah, I think it still just come back. It comes back to my perception of it. So with the commercial side, I see myself as helping.

I think the other thing, too, that you started to say, hold on, is just escape me for a second. There was the luxury piece and then, oh, gosh, what was it? Necessity. Yes. Yeah, well, there is. Yeah, the necessity. I think there is another piece of it, too. But question for you is just because something is luxury, does that mean that it shouldn't, like, the people shouldn't buy it if they can?

So what I'm doing is helping the brand to create something that's really going to showcase their brand in a beautiful light. Whereas with the private client stuff, I think it's also because I find it easy, like, to take the photograph because I've been doing it for so long. That's the other thing that kind of came up, is that I. Because it's now instinctual on, like, the settings, you know, I can do as I'm sure a lot of you can do, like, without even looking.

No, absolutely not. As I think, yeah, I think it's still just come back. It comes back to my perception of it. So with the commercial side, I see myself as helping. So what I'm doing is helping the brand to create something that's really going to showcase their brand in a beautiful light. Whereas with the private client stuff, I think it's also because I find it easy, like, to take the photograph because I've been doing it for so long.

I know where to look for the light. You know, I know how to frame it. I know how to get the reactions. I know how to pose the dogs. And because it became so instinctual for me, it felt like I shouldn't. It felt like I shouldn't be charging something for something that's so easy. So doing the actual shoot and charging for the shoot, I was absolutely fine with.

That's the other thing that kind of came up is that I. Because it's now instinctual on, like, the settings, you know, I can do as I'm sure a lot of you can do, like, without even looking. I know where to look for the light. You know, I know how to frame it. I know how to get the reactions. I know how to pose the dogs. And because it became so instinctual for me, it felt like I shouldn't.

But all I wanted to do is just go. Here's the images. There we go. Thank you. Bye. So, question. So say you went to, I don't know, a heart surgeon that's been doing it for a long time that now finds your bypass easy. Do you think he shouldn't be paid for it because it's easy? Would you rather go to the person that's like, man, this is hard. I hope I don't mess it up?

Well, you see, that's the necessity side, because if I was going to a heart surgeon, I think I'd be in a lot of trouble. So it'd be a necessity. Whereas this, I think, is kind of with the, the private client stuff, it was. It's a. It is a luxury. It is. People want to have. It's like, I've got artwork on my walls, you know, and I will. I will buy artwork because.

It felt like I shouldn't be charging something for something that's so easy. So doing the actual shoot and charging for the shoot, I was absolutely fine with. But all I wanted to do is just go. Here's the images. There we go. Thank you. So question. So say you went to, I don't know, a heart surgeon that's been doing it for a long time that now finds your bypass easy.

And I don't know. Now I'm thinking about it because I'm looking at the artwork and I'm like, they probably find it quite easy. I'm still spending money on artwork. And maybe it's because I didn't see. I don't see my transition from that awful photographer like 15 years ago to now. I forgot about that education, like in that amount of time and exactly like a portrait artist would have had all that education to get to that point.

Do you think he shouldn't be paid for it because it's easy? Would you rather go to the person that's like, man, this is hard. I hope I don't mess it up? Well, you see, that's the necessity side, because if I was going to a heart surgeon, I'd think I'd be in a lot of trouble. So it'd be a necessity. Whereas this, I think, is kind of with the private client stuff was it's a.

It is a luxury. It is. People want to have. It's like I've got artwork on my walls, you know, and I will. I will buy artwork because. And I don't know. Now I'm thinking about it because I'm looking at the artwork and I'm like, they probably find it quite easy, but I'm still spending money on artwork. And maybe it's because I didn't see. I don't see my transition from that awful photographer like, 15 years ago to now.

But also the time and effort, like a portrait or a landscape artist would put into a piece of work that makes it feel different for me. Whereas when I'm just printing something, it feels different. I don't know if that makes any sense. There is so much to unpack here. This is like, this is turning into just a straight off like mindset coaching session here because there's some stuff here.

I forgot about that education, like, that amount of time and. Exactly like a portrait artist would have had all that education to get to that point. But also the time and effort, like a portrait or a landscape artist would put into a piece of work that makes it feel different for me. Whereas when I'm just printing something, it feels different. I don't know if that makes any sense.

Carrie, I know you're going all in on commercial, but I feel like would help you there, but would also like unlock the ability to just do whatever you wanted. I'm wondering, is there something around, and I remember what I was going to say before, is there something around a belief that you shouldn't make money doing something you love, that like work needs to be hard or like there's a guilt of like, I love my job, but other people are struggling and hate their job.

There is so much to unpack here. This is turning into just a straight off mindset coaching session here. There's some stuff here. Carrie, I know you're going all in on commercial, but I feel like would help you there, but would also unlock the ability to just do whatever you wanted. I'm wondering, is there something around. And I remember what I was going to say before, is there something around a belief that you shouldn't make money doing something you love, that, like, work needs to be hard or, like, there's a guilt of, like, I love my job, but other people are struggling and hate their job.

I think that is what it used to be. And I think I maybe still with the portrait stuff. Yes. I don't, I don't know why there's a switch when it comes to commercial, though, because I don't feel like it's. I mean, I still find it easy into a certain extent, as in I know what I'm doing, you know, every circumstance is different, of course, but I don't. But I'm happy charging for that.

And I, I feel comfortable. And for the first time ever in charging and sales, I feel confident. Whereas maybe it was a confidence thing, I don't know. But with the selling of upselling of things, like I said, I did so many, I tried really hard to do, like in person, online. I've been on sales courses, I've done coaching, and it just wasn't clicking. Yeah. And that is one of the reasons that I like, sort of switched over to commercial because I was like, why should I make it that hard on myself all the time if there's an easier option?

I think that is what it used to be. And I think maybe. Still with the portrait stuff. Yes. I don't. I don't know why there's a switch when it comes to commercial, though, because I don't feel like it's. I mean, I still find it easy into a certain extent, as in, I know what I'm doing, you know, every circumstance is different, of course, but I don't. But I'm happy charging for that.

And I feel comfortable. And for the first time ever in charging and sales, I feel confident. Yeah. Whereas maybe it was a confidence thing, I don't know. But with the selling of upselling of things, like I said, I did so many. I tried really hard to do, like, in person, online. I've been on sales courses, I've done coaching, and it just wasn't clicking. Yeah. And that is one of the reasons that I, like, sort of switched over to commercial, because I was like, why should I make it that hard on myself all the time if there's an easier option?

And easier doesn't because I had to really build a brand again. So it's not necessarily easy in that respect. But the making money side of it felt easy. Well, yeah. And if you don't have that belief in what you're offering, then it's an uphill battle. I see so many photographers struggle, which is one reason, like, I'm pushing you so hard on these different sales because for what you, everything you're saying, I guarantee you there are, like, hundredfold people listening to this right now that are feeling the same way.

And they're like, yeah, yeah. But I really believe that there is, like, a little underlying, just some belief or switch that for some reason, it just has this major block on you being able to serve a luxury client, like, willingly and not willingly, but, like, just without any of that hesitation. Question for you just to try to dig into this a little bit more, how do you feel with the commercial side to businesses?

And easier doesn't because I had, you know, really build a brand again. So it's not necessarily easy in that respect, but the making money side of it felt easy. Well, and if, if you don't have that belief in what you're offering, then it's an uphill battle. You know, I see so many photographers struggle, which is one reason, like, I'm pushing you so hard on these different sales, because for what you, everything you're saying, I guarantee you there are, like, hundredfold people listening to this right now that are feeling the same way.

But what about, like, the dog walker, dog trainer, like a solopreneur? Because I feel like that feels like a lot like selling to a single person, but it's their business. But, you know, it's a solo business. Where does that one fall, that solo business fall in your selling ick or non ick? That's still not ick. And in fact, I'm much more passionate about selling to solo petrepreneurs and small businesses than I am to big, because I can see the transition.

And they're like, yeah, yeah. But I really believe that there is, like, a little underlying, just some belief or switch that for some reason, it just has this major block on you being able to serve a luxury client, like, willingly and not willingly, but, like, just without any of that hesitation. Question for you just to try to dig into this a little bit more, how do you feel with the commercial side to businesses?

I can see the difference, and I can see how I'm helping them, and I become part of their journey as well. So most of the clients that I've had are now repeat clients, and I've had a commercial client for nine years because we build that relationship and I become part of the journey with them. So it's almost like a team effort. So, yeah, if I could have two big clients a year, that would pay my bills, but then do loads of other small, solo petri printers, I would much prefer to be doing that.

But what about, like, the dog walker, dog trainer, like a solopreneur? Because I feel like that feels like a lot like selling to a single person, but it's their business. But, you know, it's a solo business. Where does that one fall, that solo business fall in your selling ick or non ick? That's still not ick. And in fact, I'm much more passionate about selling to solo petrepreneurs and small businesses than I am to big because I can see the transition.

I can see the difference, and I can see how I'm helping them. And I become part of their journey as well. So most of the clients that I've had are now repeat clients, and I've had a commercial client for nine years because we build that relationship and I become part of the journey with them. So it's almost like a team effort. So, yeah, if I could have, like, two big clients a year, that would pay my bills, but then do loads of other small, like, solo entrepreneurs, I would much prefer to be doing that.

And I'm fine selling to it because I'm getting the information out there of, and I think that's the other thing. Like, when I'm, when I'm telling people how I can help them, that's easy. And so it's selling without being Selly. Whereas when I was doing the private client stuff, I couldn't figure out how I was helping them. Like, well, I think that's maybe the thing that drives me is that I like helping people.

You know, I help connecting people, I help building relationships and pushing forward that way. Whereas the private client, it's like, yes, I can take beautiful photos of your dog, but I just want you to have the photos. I just, if you go away and print, that's amazing. Or if I can give you a printer, that's amazing if you want to do that. I just didn't want to do the end selling.

And I'm fine selling to it because I'm getting the information out there of, and I think that's the other thing. Like, when I'm telling people how I can help them, that's easy. And so it's selling without being Selly. Whereas when I was doing the private client stuff, I couldn't figure out how I was helping them. Like, I think that's maybe the thing that drives me is that I like helping people.

So, yeah, I think it's that element of, I can see where I'm helping people with the solo and small businesses, whereas with the private client stuff, I was like, I don't know what my message is. And that's one of the things that really frustrated me. When I go to conferences, it's like, oh, well, what's your message? I was like, I don't know. I just like taking photos of dogs.

You know, I help connecting people, I help building relationships and, and pushing forward that way, whereas the private client, it's like yes, I can take beautiful photos of your dog, but I just want you to have the photos. I just. If you go away and print, that's amazing. Or if I can give you a printer, that's amazing if you want to do that. I just didn't want to do the end selling, so, yeah, I think it's that element of, I can see where I'm helping people with solo and small businesses, whereas I, private client stuff.

I haven't got this big, you know, there was people with beautiful messages, like, really heartfelt, and it's so fall. And I was like, I really just like taking photos. I feel you. I feel you. I. In the same way, like, I did not have a big, heartfelt message for my pet photography. And I do know, but I don't, like, it's a weird thing because you don't. It's not something that you necessarily, like, put out there as, like, hey, this is my message.

I was like, I don't know what my message is. And that's one of the things that really frustrated me. When I go to conferences, it's like, oh, well, what's your message? I was like, I don't know. I just like taking photos of dogs. I haven't got this big, you know, there was people with beautiful messages like that, really heartfelt, and it's soulful. And I was like, I really just like taking photos.

Don't everybody look at it and cry. But it's. I think it's getting in touch with, like, and it takes a while once you start to hear from clients that, like, I served eight years ago that have reached out to me that, you know, their dog has passed. And, like, even at the point where she said she's like, I had to take the artwork down for a little bit because it was just too hard to look at.

I feel you. I feel you. I. In the same way, like, I did not have a big, heartfelt message for my pet photography. And I do know, but I don't, like, it's. It's a weird thing because you don't. It's not something that you necessarily, like, put out there as, like, hey, this is my message. Don't everybody look at it and cry. But it's. I think it's getting in touch with, like, and it takes a while once you start to hear from clients that, like, I served eight years ago that have reached out to me that, you know, their dog has passed.

But now it's back up and it means the world to me. So it's like that, you know, like, being able to connect, even if it's not outwardly, publicly. Like, I'm not going to put on my website, like, hey, one day your dog might die, and you're not going to be able to look at your artwork and you're going to take it down, but then you're really going to treasure it, like, five years later.

Like, you don't market with it, but I think it allows me, it gives me the proof of, like, oh, what I do, what I do matters to people. Like, it's. I think it's just a way longer of a transformation where the commercial stuff, it's like, pretty pictures, put it up, more business. Boom. Like, you can see the exact transformation you're giving people. Like, quickly, where the private client, it's not.

And, like, even at the point where she said, like, I had to take the artwork down for a little bit because it was just too hard to look at, but now it's back up and it means the world to me. So it's like that, you know, like, being able to connect, even if it's not outwardly, publicly. Like, I'm not going to put on my website, like, hey, one day your dog might die, and you're not going to be able to look at your artwork and you're going to take it down, but then you're really going to treasure it, like, five years later.

You might not get the feedback ever, even though they still love it. That feedback might take years, and it might be a decade until they see, like, the full transformation of what you created for them. Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think I understand the importance because I've lost dogs and, you know, I treasure the photographs that I've taken of them, and I think I would regret not having them.

You don't market with it. But I think it allows me, it gives me the proof of, like, oh, what I do, what I do matters to people. Like, it's. I think it's just a way longer of a transformation where the commercial stuff, it's like, pretty pictures, put it up, more business. Boom. Like, you can see the exact transformation you're giving people. Like, quickly, where the private client, you might not get the feedback ever, even though they still love it.

I think exactly how you've said. I didn't know how to. I just. I couldn't figure out how to communicate how important it was to get artwork and not digitals in a way that wasn't, oh, by the way, your dog's gonna, you know, pass away. He's gonna pass over Rainbow Bridge. I know, because I've been there. And that. That could have been the sticking point. It was like, how do you get across the importance without mentioning the fact that their lives are too short?

That feedback might take years and it might be a decade until they see the full transformation of what you created for them. Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think I understand the importance because I've lost dogs and, you know, I treasure the photographs that I've taken of them, and I think I would regret not having them. I think exactly how you've said, I didn't know how to.

Yeah. And, you know, I had photos of my dogs all around the house and they were still with me. And I, you know, I loved them, but it was when the first one passed away, Jasper and I. Yeah, I couldn't imagine not having. Not just a phone snap, basically, you know, if I'd have just had a couple of blurry phone snaps that might get deleted by accident or what have you, I would have been devastated.

I just. I couldn't figure out how to communicate how important it was to get artwork and not digitals in a way that wasn't, oh, by the way, your dog's gonna, you know, pass away. He's gonna pass over Rainbow Bridge. I know, because I've been there and that. That could have been the sticking point. It was like, how do you get across the importance without mentioning the fact that their lives are too short?

But it's trying to communicate that whole thing to people and the importance of it is really hard. So I think that could have been one of the sticking points as well. Well, I want to throw one more piece out here, too, and that is, I don't even know that you need to focus on communicating that as much as just internalizing, believing it, because then that gives you the ability to.

Yeah. And, you know, I had photos of my dogs all of around the house, and they were still with me. And I, you know, I loved them, but it was when the first one passed away, Jasper and I. Yeah, I couldn't imagine not having. Not just a phone snap, basically. You know, if I'd have just had a couple of blurry phone snaps that might get deleted by accident or what have you, I would have been devastated.

To come at sales from service, you know? And again, this was not planned on this conversation that we're going to go this whole thing, like, hey, by the way, if you will still want to sell private clients, which I know you've moved into commercial, but it was just like, I just know that so many other people listening to this are saying, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, right along with you as you.

But it's trying to communicate that whole thing to people and the importance of it is really hard. So I think that could have been one of the sticking points as well. Well, I want to throw one more piece out here, too. And that is, I don't even know that you need to focus on communicating that as much as just internalizing, believing it, because then that gives you the ability to.

As you shared all those things. So I appreciate you for being open and honest about all that because that was really, really helpful. Yeah, no, it really was. It really was. But, yeah, but I do love. I do love the reasons why you're doubling down into the commercial space. And that is definitely one of the things that is one of the great benefits of it, right. Is because we're taking away this, like, selling our photography is so personal.

To come at sales from service, you know? And again, this was not planned on this conversation that we're going to go like, hey, by the way, if you will still want to sell private clients, which I know you've moved into commercial, but it was just like, I just know that so many other people listening to this are saying, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, right along with you as you.

And I think whenever we're trying to market portrait stuff and still some commercial, to a lesser extent, but definitely the private clients that you are, like, putting your heart out on your sleeve, out into the world of, like, please hire me, pay me to do this thing that I love, that I know you're going to love, but, like, it's 100% reflection of me. And when they say no, it's like, oh, you know, it almost feels, even though it could be like they really wanted to, but they just, you know, have a financial situation and they can't right now or they're going to come back in a couple years or they're moving or whatever.

As you shared all those things. So I appreciate you for being open and honest about all that because that was really, really helpful. Yeah, no, it really was. It really was. But, yeah, but I do love. I do love the reasons why you're doubling down into the commercial space. And that is definitely one of the things that is one of the great benefits of it, right. Is because we're taking away this, like, selling our photography is so personal.

And I think whenever we're trying to market portrait stuff and still some commercial to a lesser extent, but definitely the private clients that you are, like, putting your heart out on your sleeve, out into the world of like, please hire me, pay me to do this thing that I love, that I know you're going to love, but like, it's 100% reflection of me. And when they say no, it's like, oh, you know, it almost feels, even though it could be like they really wanted to, but they just, you know, have a financial situation and they can't right now, or they're going to come back in a couple years or they're moving or whatever.

Like, it has nothing to do with it, but we internalize it. It's like, oh, that was a no to me personally where when you're talking to the businesses, it feels a little bit easier because she's just like, ah, no, it doesn't work in our budget right now. I'm like, okay, it is, it is exactly that. And I found it really interesting because I can be, and I'm very aware that I can be sensitive to perceived rejection.

If somebody actually rejects me, I'm kind of fine with that because at least I know, but it's the perceived rejection. And yeah, I found commercial rejection. I'm like, okay, that's fine. But I think the other thing is I'm only reaching out to people and I'm only accepting people who I really want to work with. And so far, I think I've only had to turn away one client, but that's only because they wanted me to do studio work and I don't want to do studio work.

Like, it has nothing to do with it, but we internalize it as like, oh, that was a no to me personally where when you're talking to the businesses, it feels a little bit easier because you're just like, ah, no, it doesn't work in our budget right now. I'm like, okay, it is, it is exactly that. And I found it really interesting because I can be, and I'm very aware that I can be sensitive to perceived rejection.

So I seem to be attracting the kind of people that I want to shoot and then the people that I am reaching out to again, it's people and brands that I really admire and like, so I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'm still going to support you. I'm still going to buy your stuff and, you know, like, and comment and share on your posts and things like that. And then, you know, maybe in future.

If somebody actually rejects me, I'm kind of fine with that because at least I know, but it's the perceived rejection. And yeah, I found commercial rejection. I'm like, okay, that's fine. But I think the other thing is I'm only reaching out to people and I'm only accepting people who I really want to work with. And so far, I think I've only had to turn away one client, but that's only because they wanted me to do studio work and I don't want to do studio work.

And that has happened a couple of times where they said no, and then like a year down the line, well, actually it would have been sort of maybe six or seven months down the line. It's like, oh, actually, now we're ready. Yeah. So, yeah, rejection on the commercial side, I'm like, okay. And I read a really, I know it's in a podcast, I think it was called the business of authority.

So I seem to be attracting the kind of people that I want to shoot. And then the people that I am reaching out to, it's people and brands that I really admire. And like, so I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'm still going to support you. I'm still going to buy your stuff and, you know, like, and comment and share on your posts and things like that. And then, you know, maybe in future.

And they were talking about, have you really got competition? And if somebody says no and goes with somebody else, the way that you should think about it is really glad that they found their person because if it wasn't me, then I'd prefer not to work with them. So I've got one client who I was courting has said, oh, actually, and it was quite a small business, they said, well, you know, we're going to go with a friend who can do it free of charge.

And that has happened a couple of times where they've said no, and then like a year down the line, well, actually it would have been sort of maybe six or seven months down the line. It's like, oh, actually, now we're ready. Yeah. So, yeah, rejection on the commercial side, I'm like, okay. And I read a really, I know it was in a podcast, I think it was called the business of authority.

And I'm like, okay, well, if that works for you, that's awesome. You know, I'm still going to buy your stuff, I'm still going to like your posts and we'll see if that works. If it doesn't, I'm always here kind of thing. Right. Because I think sometimes smaller businesses don't understand how the transformation can work for them because they haven't got to the point where it's like, we know we've done this, we've done this before and we know how much of a big impact this can be.

And they were talking about, have you really got competition? And if somebody says no and goes with somebody else. The way that you should think about it is I'm really glad that they found their person because if it wasn't me, then I'd prefer not to work with them. So I've got one client who I was courting has said, oh, actually, and it was quite a small business. They said, well, you know, we're going to go with a friend who can do it free of charge.

And then once they do, it's like, oh, we should have done this ages ago. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. No, those are great points for sure. Yeah. And I think commercial, private clients and commercial, very similar, where a lot of people, you might hear no at the beginning, but they come back around at the future. They just don't have a project going on right now. Or like you said, they just don't understand, especially those smaller businesses.

And I'm like, okay, well, if that works for you, that's awesome. You know, I'm still going to buy your stuff. I'm still going to like your posts and we'll see if that works. If it doesn't, I'm always here kind of thing. Right. Because I think sometimes smaller businesses don't understand how the transformation can work for them because they haven't got to the point where it's like, we know we've done this, we've done this before and we know how much of a big impact this can be.

They don't understand the impact of what our images can do for them. I love it. Do you have any advice for people that are maybe considering adding in commercial or trying to, like, maybe decide if adding some commercial photography is right for their business? Like, what advice do you have for them? Yeah. So, like, I mean, first of all, if you, if you are sure that that's the way that you want to go, obviously you've opened your doors again like that.

And then once they do, it's like, oh, we should have done this ages ago. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. No, those are great points for sure. Yeah. And I think commercial, private clients and commercial, very similar, where a lot of people, you might hear no at the beginning, but they come back around at the future. They just don't have a project going on right now. Or like you said, they just don't understand, especially those smaller businesses.

That pivoted my business hugely for the commercial side with the templates, the support and the, you know, the costing and everything. But before that, if you want to dip your toes in the water, there's things like find a brand that you love. And I've written a blog post and it's called how to woo your first commercial pet client, Bridgerton style. Just Bridgerton's like a period drama over here and it's huge.

They don't understand the impact of what our images can do for them. I love it. Do you have any advice for people that are maybe considering adding in commercial or trying to, like, maybe decide if adding some commercial photography is right for their business? Like, what advice do you have for them? Yeah. So, like, I mean, first of all, if you, if you are sure that that's the way that you want to go, obviously you've opened your doors again like that.

And basically you caught them. So, you know, you like their stuff. You say how much you like them. Don't be shy. You share their stuff. If you're able to buy their stuff, take just a phone snap, post it to your stories, tag them. So in that way, it's not just pitching, it's building a relationship. And this is how I get 90% of my clients, in fact, maybe even more.

That pivoted my business hugely for the commercial side with the templates, the support and the, you know, the costing and everything. But before that, if you want to dip your toes in the water there, it's things like find a brand that you love. And I've written a blog post and it's called how to woo your first commercial pet client, Bridgerton style. Bridgerton's like a period drama over here and it's huge.

And it isn't, you know, it's not a quick game. I've tried email pitching, cold pitching, and it occasionally works and you have to do it in volume, whereas what I've been doing is courting. So I will find brands that I want to work with. I will do all that. And then at some point I will say to them, look, I would really love to work with you. You know, I think your stuff's brilliant.

And basically you caught them. So, you know, you like their stuff. You say how much you like them. Don't be shy. You share their stuff. If you're able to buy their stuff, take just a phone snap, post it to your stories. Tag them. So in that way, it's not just pitching, it's building a relationship. And this is how I get 90% of my clients, in fact, maybe even more.

I think I can help you in this way. Can I send you my pricing proposal? And even if it's a no right now, just bear me in mind because it would be like an honour to work with you. And that's how I learned my clients. So if you're, if you're wanting to do that, like as a dip your toes in the water, I'd still follow that same process and I'd still charge them, don't, you know, don't do it for free.

And it isn't, you know, it's not a quick game. I've tried email pitching, cold pitching, and it occasionally works and you have to do it in volume, whereas what I've been doing is courting. So I will find brands that I want to work with. I will do all that. And then at some point I will say to them, look, I would really love to work with you. You know, I think your stuff's brilliant.

Make them understand that you're, you know, a serious business person. But maybe say, oh, and if you do, you know, I can put it out on my social media, you know, or I'll write a blog post or if you've got an email list, I, you know, I put them out on my email list so that they reach a new audience, that kind of thing. So give them little extras and then, yeah, just go from there.

I think I can help you in this way. Can I send you my pricing proposal? And even if it's a no right now, just bear me in mind because it would be like an honor to work with you. And that's how I learned my clients. So if you're, if you're wanting to do that, like as a dip your toes in the water, I'd still follow that same process and I'd still charge them, don't, you know, don't do it for free.

But one of the things that I learned on the course was how different a commercial shoe is structured from a private client shoot and how different a commercial photograph is from a private client shoot. So I think those are the things that you need to think of going into those shoots. If you're going to just try and land one for the first time, just to see if you like it, is that it is actually a very big difference and it's quite a big shift in the way that you photograph and the way that you would structure it.

Make them understand that youre a serious business person. But maybe say, oh, and if you do, I can put it out on my social media or I'll write a blog post or if you've got an email list, I put them out on my email list so that they reach a new audience, that kind of thing. So give them little extras and then, yeah, just go from there. But one of the things that I learned on the course was how different a commercial shoot is structured from a private client shoot and how different a commercial photograph is from a private client shoot.

So that's what I would say. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for that. That's fantastic. I will actually link to that podcast if you want to, or that blog post if you want to send me the link. We would love to link it for it in the show notes so you guys can check that out. Kerry, this has been so fantastic. Such a great conversation.

So I think those are the things that you need to think of going into those shoots if you're going to just try and land one for the first time, just to see if you like it, is that it is actually a very big difference and it's quite a big shift in the way that you photograph and the way that you would structure it. So that's what I would say.

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. And, yeah, can you let people know where they can find you online if they want to reach out and say hello? Yeah, sure. So my website is furandfables.com and if you just search fur and fables on, I'm usually on Instagram and Facebook, but actually LinkedIn, I'm hanging around there quite a lot. It's surprisingly huge amount of pet industry people on LinkedIn.

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for that. That's fantastic. I will actually link to that podcast if you want to, or that blog post if you want to send me the link. We would love to link it for it in the show notes so you guys can check that out. Kerry, this has been so fantastic, such a great conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

So. And then I get. That's just Kerry Jordan on LinkedIn. Awesome. Yeah. And Kerry. And then. Yeah, LinkedIn is, I mean, that's a great place for commercial marketing just because there's so much, just people, business connections and stuff like that on there. Yeah. Interestingly, though, there are a few private client pet photographers on there who are doing really well, too. So if you want to really, like, tap into a different market that's not oversaturated with pet photographers, go and jump on LinkedIn.

And, yeah, can you let people know where they can find you online if they want to reach out and say hello. Yeah, sure. So my website is ferndfables.com. and if you just search fir and fables on. I'm usually on Instagram and Facebook, but actually LinkedIn, I'm hanging around there quite a lot. It's surprisingly huge amount of pet industry people on LinkedIn. So. And then that's just Kerry Jordan on LinkedIn.

Awesome. Yeah. And Kerry. And then. Yeah, LinkedIn is, I mean, that's a great place for commercial marketing just because there's so much, just people, business connections and stuff like that on there. Yeah. Interestingly, though, there are a few private client pet photographers on there who are doing really well, too. So if you want to really like tap into a different market that's not over saturated with pet photographers, go and jump on LinkedIn.

Yeah, we actually have, I'll have to look it up. We have a podcast. I'll put the link in the show notes. I did a podcast with Jeff Brown who teaches photographers how to leverage LinkedIn. Oh, yeah. I'd like to know that one as well. Yeah, it was really good. So I'll post to that in the show notes for everybody, too. But Carrie, thank you again for being with us and everybody else, drop over, say hello to Kerry, and we will see you guys next week.

Yeah, we actually have, I'll have to look it up. We have a podcast. I'll put the link in the show notes. I did a podcast with Jeff Brown who teaches photographers how to leverage LinkedIn. Oh, yeah. I'd like to know that one as well. Yeah, it was really good. So I'll post to that in the show notes for everybody, too. But Carrie, thank you again for being with us.

And everybody else, drop over, say hello to Carrie, and we will see you guys next week.