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Welcome to the hair of the dog podcast.

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I'm your host,

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Nicole Begley.

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And today we are diving deep into the underground world of

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commercial pet photography.

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Have you ever considered that maybe you would like to do

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some commercial pet photography?

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What does that look like?

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How does this work?

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Is this even the right decision for you today?

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I have my friend J.

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Nichole Smith on the podcast with us and we are breaking

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down. If commercial photography is even the right fit for you

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because it's not the right fit for everyone.

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And that's okay.

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But if you want to find out if it is for

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you, go ahead and stay tuned.

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See in a minute,

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Welcome to the hair of the dog podcast.

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If you're a pet photographer,

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ready to make more money and start living a life by

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your design,

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you've come to the right place.

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And now your host,

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pet photographer,

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travel addict,

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chocolate martini connoisseur,

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Nicole Begley.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to the hair of the dog podcast.

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I am your host,

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Nicole Begley.

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And today I am here with my very special guest Jane

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Cole Smith.

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What's up Nick,

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how are you?

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Welcome back to the hair of the dog podcast.

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Thank you.

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I'm really excited to be here.

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I'm excited for our topic today.

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If you guys caught episode 65,

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Nick was on the podcast before talking all about the power

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of color in your branding.

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So it was an incredible episode.

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So go check that out.

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But today we are talking all about commercial photography and why

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it might not be for you.

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Oh my gosh,

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Nick, welcome to the podcast.

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I'm so excited for this conversation And I'm so excited with

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it, for it,

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with you because you are someone who has decided commercial photography

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is not for you,

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right? Not at this point in my life,

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maybe at some point,

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but yeah,

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not right now because yeah,

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we're going to talk about why,

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but first I want to kind of take a little rewind

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back in.

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Why don't you let everybody know about how you learned about

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this whole commercial photography world,

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what your experiences in it,

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because it's kind of like this enigma,

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this like secret society that you have to have the secret

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handshake on and like,

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know who to ask.

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And even then people were just like,

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oh my gosh,

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no, I don't want to share,

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But You and I both firmly believe that by sharing important

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information, then it just improves the industry as a whole.

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And that way more people are bidding on the right projects

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at the right price.

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And just,

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it truly ensures that some pet photographer somewhere is getting paid

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properly for the work they are doing.

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Yes. Amen.

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Yeah. So actually,

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you know,

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I was one of the OG pet photographers back in 2004.

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I started in Seattle and my business was called Dane and

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Dane studios.

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And back then,

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there was only about five pet photographers in the whole country

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that I could find the time,

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including like Jim Stratfield and New York and Jamie flew Hoff

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and I were in Seattle.

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So there was just,

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it was just such a new industry then,

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but because I was also a graphic designer and because I

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also started another business right away,

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as you do,

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if you pay off,

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I understand,

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I understand this.

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So I can't lead Someone business-wide.

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I mean,

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I already had two cars,

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I had design and photography,

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but we,

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I met John and Gila Kurtz,

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and together we founded dog is good,

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which is a lifestyle brand for pet lovers.

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And that was about a year after I launched my pet

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photography business.

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And then just after that as well,

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I met Brandy Algren,

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who's the publisher of city dog magazine.

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And we ended up sharing a physical space together.

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So I jumped straight into being in this world of actually

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spending a lot more time,

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doing stuff for brands than I was for pet parents because

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of my skillset and because of my relationships.

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And that taught me very early about what it is that

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businesses need when it comes to pet photography.

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And then a little bit later on,

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I got into some of the bigger,

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bigger brands,

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you know,

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the piranhas and stuff,

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and that in and of itself is an entirely different world.

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So I got to really understand the difference between the real

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people, small business and the big,

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big corporations.

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And watching that evolve over,

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you know,

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over almost two decades of how people are hiring and how

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they're finding photographers and what they are,

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and aren't willing to pay and what they expect.

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And it's changed a lot since then.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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It's been a,

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it's been a crazy ride for sure.

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I mean,

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yeah, 2004,

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I mean,

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it's fairly new back then.

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It was probably on like,

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oh gosh,

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we had one for the animal behavior management line.

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I was on the board of Joomla.

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Was that the,

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the platform?

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Oh my gosh.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Same with like dog is good.

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And then dad,

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like trying to do e-commerce in 2006 was like insane,

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like right.

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I mean,

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the advantage is we were in Facebook while it was still

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easy, you know,

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but oh man.

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Yeah. It does feel like a lifetime ago.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Oh man.

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All right.

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Well, let's talk about this commercial photography world and you know,

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there might be people out there that see,

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ah, commercial photography.

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Oh my gosh.

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Did ending big pay day.

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Oh. By pictures.

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Places where I can see them.

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Oh my gosh.

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And it sounds amazing.

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And there are definitely some good benefits from that,

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but there's also this whole other side of it that people

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need to be prepared for before they even start to dip

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a toe in those waters.

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What are,

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what are some of those?

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And yeah.

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So I think it does have this reputation for being,

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like you said,

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this big paycheck,

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right. And it's true.

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Like most of the photography I did was for small business

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and bigger business was,

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you know,

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five figures.

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And you know,

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when you're eating along getting 300 for a shoot and then

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a thousand on a good session,

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like having someone pay you 12,000

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or 25,000

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for a photo shoot,

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sounds pretty exciting and amazing.

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But there are a lot of strings that come with that

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kind of money and not all of it is profit because

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you do have a considerable amount of expenses in this sort

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of work as well.

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So the first thing I just wanted to point out is

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you are not ready for commercial.

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If you were just starting out as a photographer,

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you know,

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just say,

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no, just no,

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you might be ready for doing some influencer style type stuff

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where you're kind of more with your cell phone and doing

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some cool,

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you know,

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flat lays or little product features with their own dog.

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Like that stuff is kind of a different realm than what

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I'm talking about now.

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But if you're just starting out,

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you're not totally comfortable behind the camera.

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You're not,

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you don't have full sensor equipment.

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You can't even imagine the idea of trying to coordinate a

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massive photo shoot with a bunch of people and props and

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communication and all that.

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Like not for you,

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just save yourself the trouble.

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If that's,

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you know,

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come join me,

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inherit the dog academy and let's continue to grow your craft

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and get super comfortable because yeah,

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you want those camera settings and knowing how to get the

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shot to be complete and total second nature,

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because you just can't add that stress on top of all

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the stress that comes along with a commercial shoot.

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Now, I mean,

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that being said,

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we're always going to be like,

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I still get a little nervous before I go.

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Yeah. That normal nerves is not what I'm talking about.

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It's like the,

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oh my gosh,

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how am I?

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They want to shoot outside at two o'clock bright sun in

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this outdoor like area,

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this or that with this very specific look.

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And I'm like,

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how the heck am I going to do that?

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Like, you need to know how to,

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how to get that done.

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And then you can still be a little nervous about getting

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it done,

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but you need to know,

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You need to have done it before.

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I don't know the light modifiers.

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You need to know this help you need.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah. Okay.

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For sure.

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So you need to be experienced and know your camera inside

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and out and being confident that you can deliver what they

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need. All right.

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That is number one.

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And I'll just want to add on to that cause I

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have never,

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I, I have,

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so my whole career been the opposite of like an equipment

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snob. Like I spent like one of the shoots I did

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for a period.

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I did the whole thing with a 50 millimeter prime,

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like, you know,

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so I am not a CA I am not an equipment

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snob. And I think you do what you need to get

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it done.

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And with private clients,

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you can get away with just about anything as long as

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you can get them great artwork for their walls,

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but it's not the same with commercial,

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but you can rent equipment.

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So if you don't have full sensor equipment,

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but you feel confident and comfortable,

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you can use it,

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you can rent it a couple of times to get used

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to it and then rent it or two bodies to be

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fair for the shoot.

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So you have that equipment for the client.

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So this isn't like a,

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you can't do it until you have tons of money because

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I don't believe that,

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but you do need to have the right equipment to get

280
00:08:47,540 --> 00:08:47,990
the job done.

281
00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:49,700
Yeah. That's a good point too.

282
00:08:49,700 --> 00:08:53,750
Like, this is definitely more in the wedding photography realm of

283
00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:56,430
like you can't get and your camera breaks.

284
00:08:56,460 --> 00:08:58,560
Like if it's a private client and you're like,

285
00:08:58,590 --> 00:09:00,480
oh my camera just like pooped.

286
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:01,920
The bed doesn't work anymore.

287
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,750
Okay. You can reschedule,

288
00:09:03,780 --> 00:09:04,080
you know,

289
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,780
generally, but a commercial shoot.

290
00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:10,710
No. And in many cases you might be liable for all

291
00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:13,140
the expenses that everybody has incurred to be there.

292
00:09:13,140 --> 00:09:18,930
So new Bring three for a whole truck load of cameras

293
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:20,010
Just in Case.

294
00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:23,400
Oh man.

295
00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:24,900
Okay. All right.

296
00:09:25,170 --> 00:09:26,370
So that's number one.

297
00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:28,860
Number two is,

298
00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:33,470
okay. I'm going to say it all these pet photographers,

299
00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:36,240
but like I photograph pets because I don't like people.<inaudible>

300
00:09:38,850 --> 00:09:39,720
all commercials.

301
00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:40,290
Not for you,

302
00:09:40,290 --> 00:09:41,100
honey child.

303
00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:43,110
No. Yeah,

304
00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:44,730
pretty much all commercial work.

305
00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:46,200
You're going to have to include people.

306
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,630
That's not true across the board.

307
00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:50,430
Certainly there are like gigs for,

308
00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:51,210
you know,

309
00:09:51,210 --> 00:09:54,060
the, the cover of the front of dog food bags.

310
00:09:54,060 --> 00:09:55,890
And it's a dog running at the camera and I've seen,

311
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:56,310
you know,

312
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:57,210
gig after gig,

313
00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:58,380
after gig where that's true,

314
00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:02,490
but to be serious about commercial photography and being available to

315
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,680
clients, inevitably,

316
00:10:04,770 --> 00:10:07,050
you're going to have to photograph pets and people together,

317
00:10:07,050 --> 00:10:08,280
sometimes even children.

318
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:09,180
Oh my God.

319
00:10:11,550 --> 00:10:12,840
And sometimes not dogs.

320
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:13,650
Right? Like Guinea,

321
00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:15,810
pigs and rabbits and like cats.

322
00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:16,470
Oh my God.

323
00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:18,690
Cats. So yeah,

324
00:10:18,690 --> 00:10:19,770
you need to be comfortable with people.

325
00:10:19,770 --> 00:10:21,450
And the reason for that is that,

326
00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:22,200
you know,

327
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,890
we have data that says that images of people and animals

328
00:10:25,890 --> 00:10:28,890
together sort of looking straight into camera are the ones that

329
00:10:28,890 --> 00:10:31,680
perform best in a lot of different ways.

330
00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:33,870
So companies know that.

331
00:10:34,170 --> 00:10:35,490
So those are the images they weren't.

332
00:10:35,790 --> 00:10:36,960
Yeah, absolutely.

333
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,300
So you have to be comfortable working with those people and

334
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,950
yeah. Just even shooting.

335
00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:42,630
So the shooting and the posing,

336
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:48,870
but then also there's so much communication going on with either

337
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:52,350
the business or if you're working with a bigger company,

338
00:10:52,350 --> 00:10:52,860
like the,

339
00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:54,300
the ad agency,

340
00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:59,040
possibly you have so many people with so many ideas and

341
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,640
so many opinions and so many people to make happy that

342
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,600
you need to be comfortable having real conversations with people and,

343
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,260
and being able to kind of take that direction and being

344
00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:11,400
able to insert like,

345
00:11:11,490 --> 00:11:11,940
oh yeah,

346
00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:13,050
we could definitely do that.

347
00:11:13,230 --> 00:11:14,640
I have this idea too,

348
00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:15,050
you know,

349
00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:16,680
but know that it's there,

350
00:11:17,610 --> 00:11:18,540
they're hiring you.

351
00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:20,640
So They are the boss.

352
00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:21,850
Yeah. Yeah.

353
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,880
So a tremendous amount of communication,

354
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,440
but with photographing people as well,

355
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,790
it's not even just the actual photographing and posing of the

356
00:11:29,790 --> 00:11:34,110
people. Oftentimes there's model finding those people as models.

357
00:11:34,830 --> 00:11:35,940
Sometimes there's wardrobe,

358
00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:36,690
dressing, those people,

359
00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:39,210
providing hair and makeup to make sure those people look good

360
00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:41,880
and inevitably they do not follow directions.

361
00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:43,140
So there is this like,

362
00:11:43,170 --> 00:11:43,650
you know,

363
00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:45,720
like you tell them to bring clean shoes,

364
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:46,950
they do not bring clean shoes.

365
00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:49,770
And so yeah,

366
00:11:49,930 --> 00:11:52,470
it, it does add another level of complication.

367
00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:52,980
And if that is,

368
00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:54,250
so if you are a super,

369
00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:55,750
super duper duper introvert,

370
00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:57,190
this is probably not for you.

371
00:11:57,310 --> 00:11:59,470
Yeah. And with those models,

372
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:03,850
like usually it's on the photographer to find the model dogs,

373
00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:07,030
to find the model clients to set up that hair and

374
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:09,910
makeup to source the wardrobe.

375
00:12:10,990 --> 00:12:11,920
So yeah.

376
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,180
There's a lot of moving parts.

377
00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:14,710
Yep. Yep.

378
00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:15,970
Yep. All right.

379
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:17,080
Number three.

380
00:12:17,170 --> 00:12:20,980
This is my personal reason why I do not seek out

381
00:12:20,980 --> 00:12:24,190
commercial work at this point in my life because it does

382
00:12:24,190 --> 00:12:30,100
not fit my lifestyle by design because commercial clients tend to

383
00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:31,780
need everything yesterday.

384
00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:33,820
And yeah,

385
00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:35,110
I don't have to remember my schedule for that.

386
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,970
Yeah. This is one of the biggest reasons it's an incredibly

387
00:12:39,970 --> 00:12:42,190
challenging market to take on,

388
00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:45,850
is that not only do you have to often schedule the

389
00:12:45,850 --> 00:12:47,860
shoe and deliver the images like yesterday,

390
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,320
but when they contact you one thing,

391
00:12:50,350 --> 00:12:52,000
a bid or quote or information,

392
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,120
you need to get back to them within like seconds,

393
00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:58,750
because usually they're emailing several people at one time.

394
00:12:58,750 --> 00:13:00,490
So if you even want to chance at the job,

395
00:13:00,850 --> 00:13:02,620
you have to get back to them immediately.

396
00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:03,820
And then oftentimes they're like,

397
00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:05,050
can you do this next week?

398
00:13:05,290 --> 00:13:05,800
And you're like,

399
00:13:05,950 --> 00:13:10,240
oh, so if you've got a complicated life and like a

400
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,640
day job and like all these other things you need to

401
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,350
coordinate, that is going to be very,

402
00:13:14,350 --> 00:13:18,730
very challenging for you to make work with most commercial scenarios.

403
00:13:18,730 --> 00:13:21,370
Now, small businesses are often a little bit more flexible,

404
00:13:21,370 --> 00:13:25,120
but not really because they procrastinate and they have no idea

405
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,050
how long this stuff takes.

406
00:13:26,050 --> 00:13:26,380
So they're like,

407
00:13:26,410 --> 00:13:26,620
oh yeah,

408
00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:28,060
we have a trade show in two weeks.

409
00:13:28,060 --> 00:13:28,420
And you're like,

410
00:13:28,450 --> 00:13:30,970
okay, that means we need to shoot next week.

411
00:13:30,970 --> 00:13:33,340
And I need to get you the images in a day

412
00:13:33,340 --> 00:13:35,860
so that you have time to get your postcards created or

413
00:13:35,890 --> 00:13:37,090
whatever it is that they want.

414
00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:37,300
You know?

415
00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:38,440
So it is,

416
00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:40,630
it is a right now yesterday faster,

417
00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:42,760
faster kind of a industry for sure.

418
00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:44,470
Yeah. Yeah.

419
00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:46,090
And with two kids,

420
00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:47,740
and now that they're older,

421
00:13:47,770 --> 00:13:49,330
even though they're easier to take care of,

422
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,000
I am now like chauffer duty all the time.

423
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:53,440
Yeah. I've got a lot going on.

424
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,420
So that is definitely challenging.

425
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:56,560
And even like you said,

426
00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:58,270
the smaller businesses,

427
00:13:58,510 --> 00:13:58,810
you know,

428
00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:02,320
I do want to mention that there are like quite a

429
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,540
few different levels of commercial photography.

430
00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:06,280
So if you're going through and you're just like,

431
00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:07,270
oh, you know,

432
00:14:07,270 --> 00:14:09,160
like I don't have,

433
00:14:09,190 --> 00:14:11,260
I don't have the experience,

434
00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:12,640
the scheduled the,

435
00:14:13,450 --> 00:14:15,250
to do like a Purina job,

436
00:14:15,610 --> 00:14:18,340
but maybe there's a local dog Walker that just needs some

437
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:19,150
commercial images.

438
00:14:19,150 --> 00:14:21,070
So that's technically a commercial job too,

439
00:14:21,070 --> 00:14:29,020
but those are very different spectrums of Everything From pricing to

440
00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:32,950
licensing to how you show up to what you're delivering to

441
00:14:32,950 --> 00:14:35,170
timeline. Oh my gosh.

442
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,730
Yeah. Yeah.

443
00:14:36,730 --> 00:14:37,900
And I'm glad you mentioned that Nicole,

444
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:41,260
because I think we do always sort of assume that commercial

445
00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:43,990
work is just the Purina is we just keep using period

446
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:46,360
as an example because they end up hiring a lot of

447
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,020
photographers, but it's not just period of lots of other clients,

448
00:14:50,380 --> 00:14:54,560
other, it's not just the huge dog food companies and other

449
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,290
brands that are putting packaging out by the millions.

450
00:14:57,350 --> 00:15:00,920
It's, it's lots of different companies who need photography.

451
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,630
And sometimes they're not even pet companies,

452
00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:02,990
you know,

453
00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:06,230
you see shoots done for banks and real estate and all

454
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:07,910
sorts. But yeah,

455
00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:08,270
in fact,

456
00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:10,010
one of the best ways you can get started is by

457
00:15:10,010 --> 00:15:11,330
starting with small businesses,

458
00:15:11,330 --> 00:15:12,890
that's definitely what I recommend.

459
00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:17,150
And especially small product businesses because they have physical products to

460
00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:19,550
photograph. So they have a little bit more of a hunger

461
00:15:19,550 --> 00:15:23,660
and they recognize the need for photography a little bit more.

462
00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:25,940
They are sometimes willing to pay a bit more for it

463
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:27,380
than service-based businesses.

464
00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:28,340
Not always,

465
00:15:28,340 --> 00:15:30,380
but that can be a really good place to start.

466
00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:32,180
And that is a totally different ballgame.

467
00:15:32,330 --> 00:15:35,480
And one of the things I've discovered over years of doing

468
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,700
this work is that there are basically three,

469
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:42,170
three tiers based on how much revenue businesses earning that sort

470
00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:43,430
of small business.

471
00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:47,090
And then that like SME kind of middle business mode.

472
00:15:47,090 --> 00:15:48,290
And then the enterprise,

473
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:49,790
the huge companies,

474
00:15:49,790 --> 00:15:52,700
there's sort of three tiers and there's some good sort of

475
00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:55,250
markers of what they each will be comfortable paying.

476
00:15:55,460 --> 00:15:57,080
And they,

477
00:15:57,620 --> 00:15:57,920
you know,

478
00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,870
having that kind of information as a starting point,

479
00:15:59,870 --> 00:16:01,130
it's helpful to kind of go into it.

480
00:16:01,130 --> 00:16:04,670
But also you have a lot more flexibility with both time

481
00:16:04,670 --> 00:16:05,600
and resources.

482
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,340
And you can say to small businesses like,

483
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,110
okay, you can find your own models.

484
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:10,580
You can find your own location.

485
00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:13,760
Just keep in mind that the less control you have over

486
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:14,630
those variables,

487
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:18,740
the more of a disaster you could potentially walk into because

488
00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:19,970
they don't think like you,

489
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:20,600
you know,

490
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,720
they might be wanting you to photograph colors and get you

491
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,940
these fluffy dogs where you can't even see the color,

492
00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:28,700
right. Or they might want to shoot at noon,

493
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:29,240
which you know,

494
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,200
is going to look terrible,

495
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,270
but they have no clue or find you a house that's

496
00:16:32,270 --> 00:16:33,080
super dark or,

497
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:33,410
you know,

498
00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:34,190
all of those things.

499
00:16:34,190 --> 00:16:36,140
So in most cases,

500
00:16:36,140 --> 00:16:39,530
having more control over those variables helps you have a better

501
00:16:39,530 --> 00:16:41,510
outcome, but if they are super,

502
00:16:41,510 --> 00:16:42,620
super price sensitive,

503
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:45,320
then all those things that could potentially cost you time and

504
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,140
money, you can put back on them to sort out and

505
00:16:48,140 --> 00:16:48,650
say, you know,

506
00:16:48,650 --> 00:16:50,990
you have to approve them or something so that,

507
00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:51,430
you know,

508
00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:53,450
you can keep the cost as low as possible for them.

509
00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:55,130
Yeah. That's a great point.

510
00:16:55,730 --> 00:17:00,470
I actually want to throw in one other tip reason that

511
00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:01,820
we didn't talk about before,

512
00:17:02,180 --> 00:17:05,510
and that is commercial photography might not be for you if

513
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:10,310
you are terrified of figuring out a system of like handling

514
00:17:10,310 --> 00:17:11,480
all of the logistics.

515
00:17:15,370 --> 00:17:16,130
So if,

516
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,560
if managing a whole bunch of details,

517
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,130
like makes you want to run screaming with your hair on

518
00:17:22,130 --> 00:17:24,980
fire, this might not be for you.

519
00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:26,270
Or if you're like me,

520
00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:27,530
cause I am that person,

521
00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:30,020
you hire a producer and it is their job.

522
00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:30,620
But then again,

523
00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:32,690
you have to have the profit in the job to do

524
00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:34,940
that. Cause absolutely I'm totally that person,

525
00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:37,250
which is why you and I have collaborated on these things

526
00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:39,290
or that person.

527
00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:40,160
And I am not,

528
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:41,840
I love logistics.

529
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,990
I'm going to get myself a t-shirt that says I love

530
00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:47,420
logistics and color coded spreadsheets.

531
00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:51,570
That is my jam.

532
00:17:51,630 --> 00:17:52,170
Oh my God,

533
00:17:52,170 --> 00:18:00,300
let me organize something Fun.

534
00:18:00,630 --> 00:18:01,290
Oh my gosh.

535
00:18:01,590 --> 00:18:02,010
All right.

536
00:18:02,670 --> 00:18:03,720
So anyway,

537
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:06,030
just to make sure you have a plan by the way.

538
00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:09,450
Well, we can help you learn some systems for organizing.

539
00:18:10,410 --> 00:18:12,570
Yeah. Because it's not recreating the wheel,

540
00:18:12,570 --> 00:18:13,890
but you definitely need to,

541
00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:15,100
you need to be able to,

542
00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:16,590
to focus on all right.

543
00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:19,320
How do I organize all these moving pieces and just have

544
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:19,980
a little system,

545
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,810
otherwise you will lose your mind.

546
00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:24,780
Yeah. And at a bare minimum for any commercial shoe of

547
00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:26,040
any client of any size,

548
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,170
you're going to have at least one person helping you,

549
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,090
because you're going to be managing models,

550
00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:31,890
showing up and leaving dogs.

551
00:18:31,890 --> 00:18:33,840
You need to be held while you shoot someone else.

552
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:34,710
Like being in different,

553
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,710
even just eating to answer the door while people arriving you're

554
00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:38,140
in the middle,

555
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:38,460
you know,

556
00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:40,650
like you need at least one other person,

557
00:18:40,650 --> 00:18:42,000
no matter what to help you.

558
00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:45,240
Yeah. And if that other person is good with logistics,

559
00:18:47,310 --> 00:18:49,560
because there is so much of that and it can be

560
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,120
really overwhelming all those details.

561
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:51,930
Yeah. Yeah.

562
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:52,440
For sure.

563
00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:52,950
All right.

564
00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:58,290
So then our last thing to consider if commercial photography is

565
00:18:58,290 --> 00:19:02,040
correct for you is cashflow in your business.

566
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,090
Wait, wait,

567
00:19:03,090 --> 00:19:05,910
Nick. I thought I was doing commercial photography to make money.

568
00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:07,140
Why do I need cashflow?

569
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:10,050
I know it's a catch 22,

570
00:19:10,050 --> 00:19:10,440
isn't it?

571
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,500
Because it can be great for cashflow,

572
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:17,100
especially when you've got those big deposits and big paydays after

573
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:17,610
the fact,

574
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:22,860
but especially with the speed at which these people want things

575
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:29,520
and the absolutely insane tedium that is often required in actually

576
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,460
getting paid by them in terms of setting yourself up as

577
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:34,920
a vendor and filling out their background checks and all kinds

578
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,630
of crazy stuff for the big ones.

579
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:37,710
You can,

580
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:38,220
you can,

581
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,310
you can expect that in most cases you will be out

582
00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:44,160
of money up front to get a shoot set up,

583
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,120
to pay a producer,

584
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:46,920
to potentially find a location,

585
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,570
to potentially hire models,

586
00:19:48,570 --> 00:19:51,210
all kinds of things that might have to be covered by

587
00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:53,340
you before you get paid by them.

588
00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:56,280
Now, I never liked being in that situation because I felt

589
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,630
too exposed financially.

590
00:19:57,630 --> 00:19:58,770
So I always had a,

591
00:19:59,550 --> 00:20:01,560
I always made an agreement that I would always get some

592
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,310
sort of deposit before I would engage in anything like that.

593
00:20:05,310 --> 00:20:06,990
Cause I just think that's good business.

594
00:20:06,990 --> 00:20:10,050
And if they suddenly change their mind that you know,

595
00:20:10,050 --> 00:20:12,090
trying to get that money back from them could be really

596
00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:14,280
challenging. So I think that's a good best practice,

597
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:15,360
but you know,

598
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:16,680
you need to be able to hire people.

599
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,180
You need to be able to set the time aside in

600
00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:18,720
your calendar,

601
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,970
you need to potentially be able to push off other clients

602
00:20:20,970 --> 00:20:25,950
like things that can be potentially expensive and you obviously need

603
00:20:25,950 --> 00:20:26,850
to have great insurance.

604
00:20:26,850 --> 00:20:29,490
You need to potentially have multiple camera bodies and you know,

605
00:20:29,550 --> 00:20:30,570
hiring equipment.

606
00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:33,930
And there are potentially a lot of expenses that go into

607
00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:36,630
this before you get paid your money.

608
00:20:37,230 --> 00:20:38,640
And theoretically,

609
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:42,690
sometimes you actually getting paid can be a long time.

610
00:20:42,690 --> 00:20:44,400
So like one of the things that always annoyed me and

611
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,230
dog is good is we would have situations where people would

612
00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:47,950
buy, you know,

613
00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:50,320
a huge order from us and then put us on like,

614
00:20:50,650 --> 00:20:50,890
you know,

615
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,470
a 90 day terms where we'd send them the order.

616
00:20:53,470 --> 00:20:55,240
And then we got paid three months later.

617
00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:55,570
I'm like,

618
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:56,320
hold on,

619
00:20:58,030 --> 00:21:00,910
Make sense at some companies,

620
00:21:00,910 --> 00:21:01,450
if you want,

621
00:21:01,450 --> 00:21:03,190
the job might be like that.

622
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:04,540
So you need to be prepared for that.

623
00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:07,450
And so this is just another reason that it's not a

624
00:21:07,450 --> 00:21:08,350
good fit for most,

625
00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:12,520
really small businesses because you often don't just don't have the

626
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,080
cashflow to support that and,

627
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:14,920
or, you know,

628
00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:17,140
making all this wiggle room in your schedule.

629
00:21:17,470 --> 00:21:18,940
Yeah. Do you also recommend,

630
00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:19,720
as you are chatting,

631
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:21,130
it made me think of something else,

632
00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:22,300
like some of these bigger jobs,

633
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:23,980
especially you're gonna,

634
00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:27,640
they're gonna have you sign maybe some non-disclosure agreements or some

635
00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:29,020
other legal,

636
00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:30,010
legal ease.

637
00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:34,210
So is it a good practice to have a lawyer or

638
00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:36,910
somebody that you can trust to review these terms?

639
00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:38,950
And that's another potential expense.

640
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:40,810
Okay. So I'm going to say something.

641
00:21:40,810 --> 00:21:42,250
I normally wouldn't say publicly.

642
00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:46,120
Yes. A hundred percent.

643
00:21:46,150 --> 00:21:47,920
Yes. But in the real world,

644
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,630
you're probably not going to have time to have a lawyer

645
00:21:49,630 --> 00:21:50,950
review it before you sign it.

646
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,160
Right. And every time you do something that makes you more

647
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,180
difficult to work with,

648
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,700
you're potentially losing that job to someone else.

649
00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:59,200
So yes,

650
00:21:59,230 --> 00:22:00,430
from a business standpoint,

651
00:22:00,430 --> 00:22:02,320
you absolutely should have an attorney review,

652
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,850
any contract you've ever signed,

653
00:22:03,850 --> 00:22:04,810
but in reality,

654
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:07,420
they probably have a contract they use over and over.

655
00:22:07,420 --> 00:22:09,340
They're not going to make adjustments to it and you either

656
00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:10,150
sign it or you don't.

657
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:11,140
So, you know,

658
00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:13,750
having a lawyer look over at once for you,

659
00:22:13,930 --> 00:22:16,600
even after the job and then call out for you,

660
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,670
anything problematic to look for in the future,

661
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,920
the one sort of caveat to that,

662
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:21,580
that I will say,

663
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:24,460
which is a sort of a different animal than the type

664
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:26,500
of commercial we've been talking about is if you're going to

665
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:27,220
do a book deal,

666
00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:29,380
which is actually technically editorial,

667
00:22:29,410 --> 00:22:30,190
not commercial,

668
00:22:30,580 --> 00:22:33,460
but technically you're still working for a business.

669
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:36,490
You have more time for that contract.

670
00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:38,680
And there are some very specific things you want to make

671
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,080
sure you don't sign because that is a much longer term

672
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,010
relationship. And you want to make sure you're getting paid properly

673
00:22:45,010 --> 00:22:45,340
for that.

674
00:22:45,340 --> 00:22:47,920
And you're retaining the rights that you should retain for that,

675
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,260
which is like its own podcast probably.

676
00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:53,770
Yeah, but that is,

677
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:55,420
that is an exception to what I just said.

678
00:22:55,420 --> 00:22:55,930
But typically,

679
00:22:55,930 --> 00:22:56,470
like we said,

680
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:58,150
commercial jobs are working so fast,

681
00:22:58,150 --> 00:23:02,290
but a hundred percent you have so many potential people and

682
00:23:02,290 --> 00:23:04,840
services in your life that you're needing to call in quickly

683
00:23:05,140 --> 00:23:07,660
lawyers being one of them to get this job done.

684
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:08,650
Yeah. Or you,

685
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:12,760
or you as the photographer responsible for creating the verbiage and

686
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:13,660
having the model sign,

687
00:23:13,660 --> 00:23:14,380
the model release,

688
00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:16,240
or does the company that's hiring,

689
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,580
you have their own model release that they want their models

690
00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:19,000
to sign.

691
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:23,770
Typically it's on you typically you need the model release,

692
00:23:23,770 --> 00:23:25,450
you need to have them sign it and you need one

693
00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:28,180
for humans and one for animals and you actually need one

694
00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:29,440
for property as well.

695
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,960
Technically animals are property.

696
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,330
We like to call them model releases as pet photographers.

697
00:23:34,330 --> 00:23:36,370
Cause we like to think of them as people,

698
00:23:36,370 --> 00:23:39,190
but technically it's a property release for a pet,

699
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,010
but you also need a property release from a location that

700
00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:42,610
you're shooting in.

701
00:23:42,610 --> 00:23:45,920
If, especially if it's a recognizable building and you know,

702
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,110
things like the props and stuff that you use in the

703
00:23:48,110 --> 00:23:50,660
shoot can not have any recognizable brand names on it because

704
00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:52,310
this company is going to take those images,

705
00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:54,020
put them out into the world to sell stuff.

706
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,540
And they don't want to be getting lawsuits from other people

707
00:23:56,540 --> 00:23:57,170
for, you know,

708
00:23:57,170 --> 00:23:58,850
third-party copyright violation,

709
00:23:59,090 --> 00:24:00,230
trademark infringement.

710
00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:00,770
So yeah.

711
00:24:01,370 --> 00:24:03,320
Yeah. And there's certain buildings out there.

712
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:04,310
I mean the,

713
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:08,570
that the Eiffel tower only the nighttime show is trademarked and

714
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,910
copyrighted. And then I'm like,

715
00:24:10,910 --> 00:24:14,870
we're just looking for planning a workshop at a different location.

716
00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:16,940
And one of the shoots,

717
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,230
the things,

718
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:21,740
the sculptures that we want to shoot by are trademarked by

719
00:24:21,740 --> 00:24:22,520
the sculptor.

720
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:26,360
So you can't use them for commercial purposes without permission.

721
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:27,710
And oh my gosh.

722
00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:28,370
So there's yeah.

723
00:24:28,370 --> 00:24:29,090
A whole,

724
00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:30,800
a whole world of legal,

725
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,680
legal quagmires you might end up in.

726
00:24:34,190 --> 00:24:34,730
Yeah. And,

727
00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:37,700
and the bigger companies will be pretty hyper aware of that.

728
00:24:39,050 --> 00:24:40,370
Shoot. I did for Purina,

729
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,850
we did all of these different different sessions inside one really

730
00:24:43,850 --> 00:24:45,680
big house that I had to find.

731
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,870
And that is in and of itself a really good story

732
00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:51,110
because it was in LA and I found some very sketchy

733
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:52,820
places on the way to find this nice one.

734
00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:56,660
But we decided to jump in the pool.

735
00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:58,550
Cause there was a pool in the backyard and we,

736
00:24:58,580 --> 00:25:00,110
one of the guys I was shooting,

737
00:25:00,110 --> 00:25:01,820
his little Yorkie was a really good swimmer.

738
00:25:01,820 --> 00:25:03,770
And so they swim around together in this pool.

739
00:25:04,010 --> 00:25:07,640
And at the end we couldn't use any of these shots

740
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,860
because the legal team of Purina was like,

741
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,080
we can not have a dog in water without a life

742
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:18,980
jacket. I'm like Not a child,

743
00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:21,200
but no,

744
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,820
they absolutely would not allow it.

745
00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:23,660
So, you know,

746
00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:24,920
some companies are very,

747
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,650
very hyper-aware of their own legal protection,

748
00:25:27,740 --> 00:25:29,510
the smaller businesses you're going to have to look out for

749
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:30,290
them a lot more,

750
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:32,660
make sure that you're not putting them in harms way.

751
00:25:33,290 --> 00:25:33,890
Oh my gosh.

752
00:25:33,950 --> 00:25:35,540
Yes. All right.

753
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,230
So let's recap some of these reasons,

754
00:25:39,470 --> 00:25:44,620
the commercial photography may not be for you Never Want to

755
00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:48,020
Turn it around.

756
00:25:48,020 --> 00:25:49,070
Let's a couple of benefits here.

757
00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:51,500
I think you have to go into this with your eyes

758
00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:54,440
wide open because I mean,

759
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,210
a, you need to know how it works so you don't

760
00:25:56,210 --> 00:25:59,090
get totally screwed and you don't totally underbid.

761
00:25:59,090 --> 00:25:59,570
Like it's,

762
00:25:59,570 --> 00:26:02,300
it's the same thing as when I was starting as a

763
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:04,190
portrait photographer and I,

764
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:04,790
you know,

765
00:26:04,790 --> 00:26:09,380
started my business and I thought that $175 for a full

766
00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:10,280
disc of images,

767
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:12,560
I was going to like make a million dollars.

768
00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:17,060
No, that's great.

769
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:17,660
That's great.

770
00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:18,800
For an hour of work,

771
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:22,580
Our work,

772
00:26:22,820 --> 00:26:23,810
I didn't know them.

773
00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:25,910
So like your first commercial job,

774
00:26:25,940 --> 00:26:27,170
they're like $15,000.

775
00:26:27,230 --> 00:26:28,040
Oh my God.

776
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,150
Yes. Okay.

777
00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:30,410
But you need to pay the models.

778
00:26:30,410 --> 00:26:31,730
You need to find a thing.

779
00:26:31,730 --> 00:26:32,840
You need to buy us lunch.

780
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,340
You need to do this and that like,

781
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:35,480
oh my God,

782
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:36,770
what? And then,

783
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:37,370
you know,

784
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:38,300
we want worldwide,

785
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:40,640
exclusive license forever and ever,

786
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,600
and yeah.

787
00:26:41,630 --> 00:26:43,740
Or we want to buy the copyright from you.

788
00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:46,350
Okay. Well this is a whole another conversation as well.

789
00:26:46,350 --> 00:26:48,210
Also affects the pricing.

790
00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:48,510
I mean,

791
00:26:48,510 --> 00:26:54,360
there are so many moving parts to Talk about pricing.

792
00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:55,110
I Mean,

793
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:57,900
that's a whole another like three part podcast,

794
00:27:00,630 --> 00:27:01,890
But anyway.

795
00:27:02,250 --> 00:27:02,790
Oh my gosh.

796
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,180
All right.

797
00:27:03,180 --> 00:27:05,550
So going in with eyes wide open,

798
00:27:06,270 --> 00:27:07,380
you need to be experienced,

799
00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:08,130
know your camera.

800
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,710
You need to like working with people,

801
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:13,560
both photographing them and dealing with them.

802
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:15,240
Okay. And maybe you don't need to like it,

803
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,560
but you need to be able to do it and you

804
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,790
need to be able to do it tactfully.

805
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,130
Yeah. I'll hire someone to do most of it for you.

806
00:27:23,550 --> 00:27:25,020
Yeah. You can still go home and be like,

807
00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:26,910
man, I'm really need a chocolate martini today.

808
00:27:27,180 --> 00:27:28,230
That is totally fine.

809
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,400
You need to be able to have a schedule that can

810
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,670
accommodate the cat-like reflexes of,

811
00:27:35,670 --> 00:27:37,680
I need it now of commercial photography.

812
00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:41,610
And you need to be able to have enough cashflow in

813
00:27:41,610 --> 00:27:44,760
your business to be able to handle any outlays.

814
00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:47,580
Even with taking into consideration,

815
00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:50,700
the best practices of getting the deposit before you have to

816
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:51,810
actually outlay any money.

817
00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:53,370
It still might take a little bit of time for that

818
00:27:53,370 --> 00:27:54,180
deposit to get to you.

819
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:56,280
By the time you have to spend something.

820
00:27:57,180 --> 00:28:00,630
Woo. And then what was the other one I threw in

821
00:28:00,630 --> 00:28:01,470
there? Oh,

822
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,770
logistics. You need to love logistics or be able to hire

823
00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:06,630
someone to help you love logistics.

824
00:28:07,140 --> 00:28:07,800
Oh my gosh.

825
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,280
Okay. So that being said,

826
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,340
does anyone want to do this?

827
00:28:16,020 --> 00:28:17,100
It's such a good question.

828
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:21,690
Okay. So there's a couple fairly obvious and less obvious reasons

829
00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:24,060
that commercial is so amazing.

830
00:28:24,210 --> 00:28:26,310
The first one that most people are aware of is that

831
00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:28,020
it is a massive ego boost,

832
00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:30,390
right? Like I will never forget,

833
00:28:30,390 --> 00:28:31,650
cause I didn't know what was going to happen,

834
00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:34,650
but I walked into Petco and my images were huge in

835
00:28:34,650 --> 00:28:35,850
Petco. And I was like,

836
00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:39,390
why? Because I did not sell them to Petco.

837
00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:40,590
I sold them to true Panion,

838
00:28:40,590 --> 00:28:43,440
which was a pet insurance who had a relationship with Petco

839
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,510
and put them up huge inside of Picco.

840
00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:46,080
And I was like,

841
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:50,370
this is so that is awesome.

842
00:28:50,370 --> 00:28:52,770
Right? Seeing your dog on a dog food bag at the

843
00:28:52,770 --> 00:28:54,570
store on a really cool website,

844
00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:54,840
you know,

845
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,260
being able to have a portfolio full of those things and

846
00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:00,630
being able to work with companies that you really respect and

847
00:29:00,630 --> 00:29:02,670
admire for the work that they're doing,

848
00:29:02,670 --> 00:29:03,990
the products that they're creating,

849
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:04,530
you know,

850
00:29:04,590 --> 00:29:06,930
there is cache to that and,

851
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:08,490
and enjoyment and fulfillment to that.

852
00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:09,060
That is really,

853
00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:11,550
really cool and hard to get elsewhere.

854
00:29:11,550 --> 00:29:13,020
So that is awesome.

855
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:15,720
The paydays can be awesome.

856
00:29:16,110 --> 00:29:17,160
Like, you know,

857
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,870
getting that check where you're like,

858
00:29:18,930 --> 00:29:19,440
oh man,

859
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,540
this is the most money I've ever had in my business

860
00:29:21,540 --> 00:29:25,230
bank account is like super cool and paying yourself and giving

861
00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:27,450
yourself a little gift off the back of that is super

862
00:29:27,450 --> 00:29:30,210
cool. That is never gets old ever.

863
00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:33,810
Even if it is a check that takes like weeks to

864
00:29:33,810 --> 00:29:37,230
clear because of the complicated financial process.

865
00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:38,640
So that's really awesome.

866
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,070
One of the things you might not know that you probably

867
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:43,840
have already experienced and I'm sure,

868
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:44,050
you know,

869
00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:47,200
you've, you've heard Nicole talk about this and you've been involved

870
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,790
in Nicole's programs to work through this,

871
00:29:48,790 --> 00:29:50,200
but finding,

872
00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:50,710
you know,

873
00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:51,580
pat photography,

874
00:29:51,580 --> 00:29:54,130
clients, private clients can be very challenging,

875
00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:55,030
right? That is like,

876
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:57,010
it's hard for any business to find clients,

877
00:29:57,010 --> 00:29:58,180
but pet photography.

878
00:29:58,570 --> 00:30:01,210
I can promise you because I've worked with a lot of

879
00:30:01,210 --> 00:30:04,510
businesses in the pet industry and pet photography is one of

880
00:30:04,510 --> 00:30:07,420
the hardest to go out and find clients for because it's

881
00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:08,170
a luxury.

882
00:30:08,170 --> 00:30:11,830
And because the sales cycle is long and the purchase occasions

883
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:13,660
are rare and it's not consumable.

884
00:30:13,660 --> 00:30:18,490
So pet photography to private clients is it's hard to find

885
00:30:18,490 --> 00:30:20,650
clients. Whereas commercial,

886
00:30:21,340 --> 00:30:24,340
the bit you might not sort of have realized is that

887
00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:27,820
you can go look at brands and businesses out in the

888
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:29,470
world that you would like to shoot for,

889
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:30,400
make a list of them,

890
00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:34,060
find their contact information and work at like a Procher proper

891
00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:34,750
sales system,

892
00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:35,470
where you have,

893
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:36,190
you know,

894
00:30:36,190 --> 00:30:37,000
you touch base,

895
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,020
you touch base again,

896
00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:39,220
you build relationships.

897
00:30:39,220 --> 00:30:40,270
You can actually,

898
00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:41,140
you know,

899
00:30:41,290 --> 00:30:44,200
have a system to go out and shoot for who you

900
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:44,860
want to shoot for.

901
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:46,870
And I've been teaching this for years and you know,

902
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:47,740
a couple of my clients,

903
00:30:48,130 --> 00:30:49,210
one in particular,

904
00:30:49,270 --> 00:30:52,030
I, I taught her this method and within six months she

905
00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:52,690
had three,

906
00:30:52,690 --> 00:30:54,790
a for top 10 ideal client,

907
00:30:54,820 --> 00:30:55,660
big client,

908
00:30:55,690 --> 00:30:57,100
like these are not small businesses.

909
00:30:57,100 --> 00:30:58,480
They were huge brands.

910
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,280
And she had shot for three of them inside of six

911
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,240
months. So,

912
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:01,870
you know,

913
00:31:01,930 --> 00:31:03,520
that system does work.

914
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,050
It might sound a little old fashioned,

915
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,630
but it is so much easier because you can see who

916
00:31:07,630 --> 00:31:08,470
these companies are,

917
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:09,940
identify them and go after them,

918
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,350
which gives you so much more control in your business.

919
00:31:14,590 --> 00:31:16,630
Because the flip side of that is you can also have

920
00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:18,130
those small packages for local,

921
00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:19,540
small businesses for the vets,

922
00:31:19,540 --> 00:31:20,290
the dog walkers,

923
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,190
the small makers,

924
00:31:21,670 --> 00:31:24,220
and those guys are easier to sell to as well.

925
00:31:24,220 --> 00:31:25,060
Then the pet parent,

926
00:31:25,090 --> 00:31:26,080
even if you're selling,

927
00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:26,350
you know,

928
00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:27,210
a $500,

929
00:31:27,220 --> 00:31:28,570
$1,500 package,

930
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,370
like oftentimes that's way easier and takes a lot less time

931
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:36,970
than the whole 10 to 20 hour engagement with a boutique

932
00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:37,930
pet photography client.

933
00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:39,970
Yep. And winner winner,

934
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:41,230
the final product,

935
00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:44,410
always of commercial photography is high res images.

936
00:31:44,890 --> 00:31:46,300
Right? Right.

937
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:50,650
So like there's no product cost involved in this,

938
00:31:50,770 --> 00:31:51,820
which I love.

939
00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:55,450
And I also love that there's no shipping because it's like

940
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,670
you pop them in a Dropbox or a gallery or a

941
00:31:57,670 --> 00:32:02,290
drive. And there they are like FedExing stuff at the last

942
00:32:02,590 --> 00:32:03,340
minute, you know?

943
00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:04,720
Like I love that.

944
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,830
So, you know,

945
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:06,490
it really,

946
00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:08,530
really can be a viable way.

947
00:32:08,530 --> 00:32:09,460
So the,

948
00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:10,900
one of the things I love about it is,

949
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:13,360
especially if you are a pet photographer and you are not

950
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,430
in one of these crazy urban areas,

951
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:17,740
like what the hell is going on with Dallas and pet

952
00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:20,830
photography At all?

953
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,290
Especially back in like the 2010s.

954
00:32:23,650 --> 00:32:24,460
Yeah. Okay.

955
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:27,370
But it was never like Dallas people are not spending like

956
00:32:27,370 --> 00:32:29,950
$20,000 on pet photography in Seattle.

957
00:32:31,180 --> 00:32:32,340
Everything's bigger in Texas.

958
00:32:32,350 --> 00:32:35,980
I say It is so like there are you,

959
00:32:35,980 --> 00:32:37,180
Seattle was a great market.

960
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:38,290
San San Francisco,

961
00:32:38,290 --> 00:32:39,010
San Diego,

962
00:32:39,020 --> 00:32:39,680
like, you know,

963
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:40,820
Washington DC.

964
00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:42,890
There's great markets all over the country.

965
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,260
But if you are not in one of those great markets,

966
00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:47,660
you are a little bit stuck in terms of growing your

967
00:32:47,660 --> 00:32:50,600
business to some of your financial ambitions.

968
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,220
Potentially. If you have that dream of like,

969
00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:55,070
I want to be able to leave my corporate job and

970
00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:55,970
do pet photography,

971
00:32:55,970 --> 00:32:57,530
but you're in a slightly rural area.

972
00:32:57,770 --> 00:33:01,250
You're going to really struggle to do that without commercial work,

973
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,550
because you just don't have the people in a local radius,

974
00:33:04,550 --> 00:33:08,120
but commercial gives you a global reach in terms of what

975
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:08,600
you can do.

976
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:09,890
Cause people can ship you products.

977
00:33:09,890 --> 00:33:10,760
They can fly to you.

978
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,060
And especially if you have an area that's beautiful to shoot

979
00:33:14,060 --> 00:33:17,570
in where you can create beautiful images and that are really

980
00:33:17,570 --> 00:33:21,650
desirable, then there's a reason for them to choose you over

981
00:33:21,650 --> 00:33:23,870
someone in a more urban area who doesn't have access to

982
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:26,060
the mountains or the fields or the rivers or whatever that

983
00:33:26,060 --> 00:33:26,570
you might.

984
00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:30,350
So you can have a strategic advantage there and you can

985
00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:32,750
get your business over that six figures and more,

986
00:33:33,170 --> 00:33:35,750
even if you're not in one of those great geographic areas

987
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:36,890
for private client work.

988
00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:38,240
So that's another huge advantage.

989
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:40,100
Yeah. Oh my gosh.

990
00:33:40,460 --> 00:33:40,940
I love it.

991
00:33:41,060 --> 00:33:43,790
So if you guys have gone through this and you're like,

992
00:33:43,940 --> 00:33:45,020
alright, I get it.

993
00:33:45,020 --> 00:33:45,470
I get it.

994
00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:47,510
I see these potential like pitfalls,

995
00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:50,000
the places that people don't think about before I go into

996
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,010
commercial and I can check those boxes.

997
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,150
I'm okay with that.

998
00:33:53,150 --> 00:33:56,300
And this sounds like something I'd like to learn more on.

999
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:03,320
Come check out our different training opportunities [email protected]

1000
00:34:03,410 --> 00:34:04,460
slash commercial.

1001
00:34:04,820 --> 00:34:09,050
We have some additional free commercial training over there.

1002
00:34:09,050 --> 00:34:11,420
So definitely come check that out.

1003
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,160
Very, very cool.

1004
00:34:13,670 --> 00:34:15,890
Definitely want to check that out There.

1005
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,370
It's hard to find this kind of information and you guys,

1006
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:23,030
And the reason for that I'll tell you why is because,

1007
00:34:23,180 --> 00:34:23,930
like I said,

1008
00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:24,620
just now,

1009
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:27,140
when you are a commercial photographer,

1010
00:34:27,140 --> 00:34:28,670
your competition is everywhere.

1011
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:29,900
Everyone everywhere,

1012
00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:32,030
Even now Worldwide.

1013
00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:33,350
Yeah. People are going to Australia,

1014
00:34:33,350 --> 00:34:34,130
New Zealand,

1015
00:34:34,130 --> 00:34:34,400
you know,

1016
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,960
it doesn't really matter.

1017
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,500
So nobody wants to share this information because nobody wants you

1018
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,170
to be their competition.

1019
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,600
Luckily, I don't really do this work anymore.

1020
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,940
So I am not your competition.

1021
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:48,590
And like Nicole said at the beginning,

1022
00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:49,340
it's really,

1023
00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:51,050
really important that everyone gets educated.

1024
00:34:51,050 --> 00:34:53,090
If you're interested in jumping in,

1025
00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:54,470
because nobody wants a photographer.

1026
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:57,410
That's like massively underbidding everybody else.

1027
00:34:57,470 --> 00:34:59,660
And then also you don't want to be that photographer.

1028
00:34:59,660 --> 00:35:01,940
Even if you get the game because it will make,

1029
00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:04,280
it will be the most miserable thing you ever do.

1030
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,480
And you will lose money.

1031
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:07,280
If you're underbidding these jobs,

1032
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:09,170
it will not be a fun,

1033
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,700
fun job for you.

1034
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:11,990
So I want to avoid that.

1035
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:13,490
I want everybody to be educated,

1036
00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:13,910
it's that,

1037
00:35:13,970 --> 00:35:14,180
you know,

1038
00:35:14,180 --> 00:35:16,760
rising tide raises all boats kind of thing.

1039
00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:20,030
And so I share a lot of in-depth information that nobody

1040
00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:22,730
else does because I think it's the right thing to do

1041
00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:23,570
For sure.

1042
00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:24,590
And then the secret,

1043
00:35:24,590 --> 00:35:25,520
if you're sitting out there like,

1044
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:26,990
well, if everybody's putting the same,

1045
00:35:26,990 --> 00:35:28,790
how the heck do I ever get them to pick me?

1046
00:35:29,060 --> 00:35:31,790
Well, that comes down to really continuing to hone in on

1047
00:35:31,790 --> 00:35:33,290
your craft and your style.

1048
00:35:33,350 --> 00:35:34,520
And you know,

1049
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,100
then the brands can look at your portfolio and if you're

1050
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,430
curating your portfolio for what makes your heart sing,

1051
00:35:41,790 --> 00:35:45,840
you will get hired by the brands that want that same

1052
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,560
imagery. Okay.

1053
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,670
Maybe some imagery,

1054
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:47,880
you know,

1055
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,040
some brands want something more over here,

1056
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,480
but you're more on,

1057
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:51,840
you know,

1058
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:52,920
they want punchy,

1059
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,330
but you're more like cereal,

1060
00:35:54,540 --> 00:35:57,030
okay. But there's going to be other brands that want your

1061
00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:00,450
look. So let's not get all hung up on,

1062
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:01,020
oh my gosh,

1063
00:36:01,050 --> 00:36:04,200
I have to shoot this way because this is what sells.

1064
00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:05,970
No, no,

1065
00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:09,150
you shoot in a way that you love.

1066
00:36:09,210 --> 00:36:12,750
And you curate that look like if you make that your

1067
00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:16,080
number one freaking job in your business to curate the look

1068
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,430
that you want to create,

1069
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:21,630
both private and commercial clients will choose you.

1070
00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:23,550
That's exactly what I was going to say.

1071
00:36:23,610 --> 00:36:25,620
I'm not as commercial As my soap box now.

1072
00:36:26,430 --> 00:36:27,450
No, this is so important.

1073
00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:28,830
And this is a big thing I talk about.

1074
00:36:28,830 --> 00:36:29,940
Cause I mean,

1075
00:36:30,060 --> 00:36:31,590
obviously I care about brands.

1076
00:36:31,590 --> 00:36:34,200
I wrote the book million dollar dog brand branding is like

1077
00:36:34,740 --> 00:36:36,000
so important to me.

1078
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:37,560
And for pet photographers,

1079
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,830
you have so much opportunity that most brands don't have because

1080
00:36:40,830 --> 00:36:43,080
you get to create your own imagery so powerfully,

1081
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:46,590
but your brand and your style have to go hand in

1082
00:36:46,590 --> 00:36:49,650
hand and you have to start figuring out what that is.

1083
00:36:50,070 --> 00:36:51,930
And like we just said,

1084
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,460
if you get clear on that,

1085
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,190
you can also get clear on which companies might be a

1086
00:36:56,190 --> 00:36:56,910
good fit for that.

1087
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,010
Don't go after the ones that are not,

1088
00:36:59,490 --> 00:36:59,760
you know,

1089
00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:02,130
like, and then if we all stay in our own lane

1090
00:37:02,130 --> 00:37:04,230
and we develop our own style and we go off our

1091
00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:05,820
brands that are like,

1092
00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:07,080
what we do then,

1093
00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:07,680
you know,

1094
00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:10,260
there ends up being a lot less crossover in,

1095
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,240
in actual hardcore competition.

1096
00:37:13,350 --> 00:37:13,980
Oh my gosh.

1097
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:15,360
Yes, go do it.

1098
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,090
People, Nick,

1099
00:37:18,090 --> 00:37:19,800
this has been such a good conversation.

1100
00:37:19,830 --> 00:37:20,580
Thank you so much.

1101
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:22,860
Hopefully we'll entertain you guys a little bit too,

1102
00:37:22,860 --> 00:37:25,740
as you learn about this world of commercial photography,

1103
00:37:25,980 --> 00:37:26,250
if you,

1104
00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:26,730
like I said,

1105
00:37:26,730 --> 00:37:27,900
if you guys want some more training,

1106
00:37:27,930 --> 00:37:31,290
jump over to hair of the dog academy.com/commercial,

1107
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,640
and you'll see some more from me and Nick over there.

1108
00:37:35,850 --> 00:37:39,150
Nick, thanks so much for being here with us and we

1109
00:37:39,180 --> 00:37:39,840
will see you soon.

1110
00:37:40,260 --> 00:37:40,920
You're welcome.

1111
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:41,910
Ciao. Alright,

1112
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:45,180
bye. Thanks for listening to the hair of the dog podcast.

1113
00:37:45,210 --> 00:37:47,580
This was episode number 1 45.

1114
00:37:47,580 --> 00:37:49,380
If you want to check out the show notes for access

1115
00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:51,690
to any of the resources that we mentioned,

1116
00:37:51,690 --> 00:37:56,880
simply go to www.hairofthedogacademy.com/

1117
00:37:58,740 --> 00:37:59,700
1 4 5.

1118
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:02,310
Thanks for listening to this episode of hair of the dog

1119
00:38:01,740 --> 00:38:04,020
podcast. If you enjoyed this show,

1120
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,940
please take a minute to leave a review.

1121
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:07,020
And while you're there,

1122
00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:08,520
don't forget to subscribe.

1123
00:38:08,580 --> 00:38:10,800
So you don't miss our upcoming episodes.

1124
00:38:11,310 --> 00:38:12,060
One last thing,

1125
00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:15,120
if you are ready to dive into more resources,

1126
00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:20,790
head over to our [email protected].

1127
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,330
Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community.