Hi everybody. It's Nicole from the hair of the dog podcast and welcome to episode number 11 timeless marketing strategies with Lucy Dumas. Well, we can't deny we're in a crazy time in this world with the coven 19 taking over the planet and keeping us all at home and unable to work in our businesses. But just because we can't be working in our businesses, actually photographing right now doesn't mean we can't be working on our business. It doesn't mean we can't be planning ahead with what we can start doing to market our business and get our business ready to take off as soon as things start to get back to normal because this too will pass. So you're definitely going to want to tune in and enjoy today's episode.

Welcome to the hair of the dog podcast. If you're a pet photographer, ready to make more money and start living a life by your design, you've come to the right place. And now your host, pet photographer, travel addicts, chocolate martini connoisseur, Nicole Begley.

Hey everybody. Nicole here from hair of the dog and I am here with Lucy[inaudible] from Lucy Dumas, fine photography incorporated and the profitable photographer over in sunny San Diego. And we are going to be chatting all about what we all love to chat about the backbone of our business marketing strategies. So welcome Liz.

How are you? So excited to be talking to you and just excited to be talking to anybody right now.

No, for real. We're recording. This one is today. It's like, I don't even know what day of the week anymore. It's a Friday, April 3rd, 2020. So we are in the midst of coven crazy, um, coven chaos that I've wanted to talk to Lucy during this time because Lucy, you are someone who appreciates good marketing like me and have lots of awesome marketing ideas. And I keep on saying to all of my people that, you know, right now we had a week or two to be kind of shocked and, and get sucked into the news and everything that was happening. But now we know our new reality and we have a choice to make. We can either kind of just sit and wait this out and do nothing and try to work on our business again later on once it passes. Or we can make a choice now to say, Hey, what is it that I can do in my business right now that is going to set my business up for success once things got moving again, so that way as soon as our isolation is lifted, then we can get right out there and get to work with our business. So I'm super excited to chat about all that stuff with you, but before we get into all of that, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your business and your background?

Well, I've been in business full time, no lottery winnings or a judge husband or other jobs, 38 years. And actually if I'd had those other things, I don't think I would have been as motivated because if I don't earn the money, I got no money.

Right, right. It is amazing how that does add a little, I'm a little bit of fire.

I was dabbling. I had a little business in the San airport and I was dabbling in photography business and then a recession hit back, you know, down and my contract is canceled and I was suddenly unemployed and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. So I want to suggest to people that this might be the absolute best thing that's ever happened to you when you look back. That's a, you know, having that perspective. Um,

100%. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like before any big change happens that like you kind of have to burn things to the ground and then you're like, Oh, all right, well because we get so focused in our day to day and just kind of getting pushed around by all the things that we have going in our life that we sometimes don't spend the energy and the time to really focus on. Hold up. What do I really want? What, how do I really want to hear? So sometimes life forces us to, to make those decisions, which ends up being good in the longterm, but seems a little[inaudible].

Yes. My 38 year career and I have survived six recessions and always was in a better position after I specialize in weddings for 12 years, probably did about 500 ekes maybe whisper. So back when, uh, all the guys were pretty much running this business. They didn't know what to do with babies, especially little ones. So they locally would send them all to me, which was awesome. And then the last probably 15 years, it evolved to more outdoor family portraits. I also am a business coach. I've been doing this about five years or so. And I have a podcast, which Nicole has been on in her episode, is very popular by the profitable photographer with Lucy Dumas. So yeah, that's my background and I've worked at home my whole career. I really like the commute from infer clients. I do wonder because I've never really loved studio photography, but I've done it on, I have an apartment above my garage that I turned into a studio. I sometimes wonder if I would have loved studio more if I found a space I could brand that was affordable or economical that was bigger. So yeah, but allow the outdoors. I'm actually what you may see a real natural life photographer, meaning I know how to find beautiful light and work with it outdoors and, and add as needed. But, but my passion is discovering a light that's available. So that's one of my superpowers. The other is sales. No three to while portraits is my average, um, and most of the time an album or clients. So that's my background.

Excellent. Excellent. That's fantastic. So when you started your business, gosh, 38 years ago, what have you seen as the big changes in the industry from then to now and, and how, you know, just, yeah, I guess, what have you noticed that's changed most drastically?

So I want start by flipping

that. What hasn't changed is the people that are successful are the ones that do the work, that learn to be great salespeople, great marketers, great photographers, have a clear brand, communicate it well and work, put the time in. Yes. Yes. And I like how you mentioned too that they learn to do the work because I think a lot of people think that people that are successful in their business, like basically one day just decided to, Hey, I'm successful and their business was built and they don't realize the years of mistakes and learning and looking at everything is an improvement and as an experiment and any failure, taking that to say, what can I learn from this? How can I improve this next time? And so it's just not being afraid to try new things and to keep expanding and learning on all aspects. From your craft to your sales, to your branding, to your customer service. I mean I'm still learning craft. I went to a benchmark workshop just last month, right before everything was shut down. So I'm still learning. I'm a sponge, I'm like always looking for new things to learn. And I think anyone that does that is definitely helping to set their business up or a little bit more

and times like these what I've done, you know, this is unusual, but there are similarities. And every time, once I, once I got my head out of the sand and said, Holy cow, how to do something, um, I pretended like I was starting my business over. I took the attitude of, okay, what was, what did I do at the beginning of the first couple of years? And w what I've done every time is, I already said this, but where can I improve? Where can I, what can I learn? How can my photography be better? How can I refine what I do or narrow down or my marketing being more creative? So I've actually improved steadily. I always look back about a year later and go, Oh my gosh, I love my work so much better than I did a year ago. Um, I dunno, I have friends who their work looks exactly the same as it did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and it's great and they're still selling, you know, different. I, yeah, it's just, it's just my nature. So the things that have changed of course is, uh, I'm a film girl, you know, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, we hadn't had to wait a week to know if anything was going to come out. Like I was, I was, uh, there was someone in a wedding, uh, Facebook group saying, okay, let's share some horror stories. My worst was that my camera, it was AMEA C3 30. There's this little lever that if it's flipped when you fire off the shutter, the flash and the shutter do not sink photographing a friend's wedding. And now the groom had agreed to do the portraits, the formals beforehand, and he and his buddies decided to go to a bar instead before the wedding. So I have beautiful pictures of the bride and her family and the bridesmaids and nothing of that includes the bride and groom together, or the groom and his guys or his family because he knows on the altar arc, by the time, um, you know, we, the wedding's over the only picture with them to get, we used to do this thing where the bride and groom looked down. It was a double exposure where they're down on their ceremony and that one was done with natural light, with candlelight that turned out. Um, so these days I know that I, things weren't working because of digital. Um, and also with digital, of course, there's a lot more people in the industry and a lot more they can't get in every day. Like I, I know that there will be people during this crazy time who lose their businesses or quit, but I know there's a lot of people sitting at home thinking, I hate my life. What do I want to do instead? Photography. And so there'll be an influx of new people. Um, but we can't worry about that, you know, I got it.

No, no, I mean they're, they're truly not our, our competition. I always let people know too, you know, it's, it's kind of a beauty and a curse kind of thing that it's great that there is this low barrier of entry. I mean you really need a camera and a computer and some editing software and you can basically start a business. But because that barrier of entry is so low, there's this whole big area of just mediocre service, mediocre images, just this kind of giant wild West of the lower half of the market where the key to doing this longterm and becoming profitable is to raise yourself out of there and really hone your craft and learn customer service and learn branding and learn value and learn sales and sales doesn't mean slimy. It's really just serving our customer that, you know, takes that business up to a different level. Where the clients that come to me aren't interested in all the digitals from like a little, you know, kind of shoot and burn thing because they want the service, they want the artwork, they want the value that I'm providing. So anyone that starts to think, Oh my gosh, there's going to be too many people, it's going to be too hard. It's not easy. It is hard that test take work, but it's absolutely doable. You just need to know where you need to focus and what you need to focus on and what you need to grow in order to start to have that value and be a leader in your case.

Um, that has me think of two things. First of all, there's always room at the top and that's always been true and always will be true. So people are always gonna want service and quality and building a relationship with the artist or with the studio if, if there. Yeah.

And, and truly, and even though if the, if the phones become like so amazing and creating these beautiful images, especially as pet photographers, um, our phones aren't going to be able to remove leashes, remove people, holding the dog, create the artwork. Like there is always more that we can do. And if our images are looking like they came out of a phone, well then we need to continue to up our game of our craft. So yeah, there's always ways to distinguish ourselves.

Positive side for me in terms of this, you know, sea change of a zillion photographers is, I will admit I was a lazy marketer. I used to have an ad in the yellow pages in this magazine called San Diego parent that was always distributed to the right people. And that got the phone ringing all the time. So I, because once I get a good lead, it's on like donkey Kong. With the sales aspect, I was able to be a little bit lazy. I would do some charity events and a little bit of this and that, but I was not as proactive as then in Oh nine and 10 and 11 the world changed and I was like, okay, I have to get on this and things. So now that's something, it's still not my favorite, but, but I'm good at it and I'm, you know, I help, I have a very creative brain and so I'm able to help my coaching clients and friends and stuff, think up ideas that would work in people's specialties and communities. So yes, my one, I had one client, Phil Mickelson, the golfer and his family were eight years and she has me at least twice a year and dropped a pretty nice chunk of change. And that was a blessing and a curse as I look back, because it was always that cushion that if I was a little lazy that year, well the Mickelson money was gonna come through and, and, and I adored working for them. They're the nicest people. And, and whatever I did, she would order it, but I see how it also held me back. So the moral of that story is marketing anyway.

Yes, no, I think that's a really easy for any of us to kind of get in a comfort trap where we're like, okay, Hey, the business is going well, especially maybe like third, fourth quarter where we're busy. And it's fall and everybody's calling and you know the calendar, it's easier to fill your calendar and then all of a sudden first quarter hits and you haven't done anything in the fall to prepare for first quarter and people are like, Whoa, wait, what happened to all my clients? So that's definitely something that everyone needs to focus on. I think we need to just kind of keep some marketing time in our calendar and, and get in the habit of thinking ahead and being proactive. And that's the secret to this really. It's again not difficult, it's just not easy.

No, it means that I do with my coaching clients is I have them submit before our calls, a time chart where they break them, how much marketing, working with their clients production and then office things so we can see where the gaps are. I have a lot of people who will, not a lot, but every now and then someone will say, you know, I'm super busy but I'm this not making any money. And so then I'm like, uh, let's get back on this is time chart and see how their time, your time and that they'd be putting no time into marketing but they're busy. So they think that money should be flowing in but you don't have a website. And so business cards and then the phone start turning.

Agreed. Yeah. I think so many people think, Oh website and I'll post a little bit on social and that should be enough. I have good SEO but it's, it's not. And it becomes so easy for us to, you know, cause as a business owner, of course there's always a giant list of things that need to get done. So it's so tempting to just pick off, Oh the things that are easy and you know how to do like the little admin tasks and the little things that you're working in your business instead of doing the harder things, which is maybe developing that new marketing strategy and, and reaching out to people in your community that are going to actually pay the dividends. But Oh wait, there's these other things to do that keep me safe. I'll just do those instead. And they never get around to the big stuff,

right? Yeah. The thing is, I bet 95% of photographers are afraid to have someone help them think they can't afford it or they want to micromanage. And as soon as we can, we need to have help with whatever, including housekeeping, if if you're, um, I've always, it was easier when I did weddings because I could give somebody a steady, they'd come over and they'd put books together, you know, this is in the film days and, and clip negatives into bags and order and then all of the physical labor and the data entry and keeping my office more organized than left to my own devices. A little bit of, I don't know if you'd call it slop, but the weeds grow. And I had friends who were in the same community getting weddings and they weren't competition. But if they were like, well, I just can't afford it and they lost their businesses and I just get going steady because what happens, I'm sure you know this cycle Nicole is well we get a little time to ourselves and we're like, Oh, I need money. Any clients. So then we market like crazy and then we get really busy and marketing activities stuff. So then once we serve those people we've drawn to us it's crickets again. But when we've got a system and we've got help, it can be people even virtually now I'm finding whatever. There's this exercise that I like to do with people called the cake and cringe where you write down in order of importance, those things that are like eating cake for you, things you love to do, and then the ones that make you cringe. And then think about how with the cringe worthy ones, which ones you absolutely have to do yourself and which ones you can delegate. And in the calc ones, which ones you need to delegate because it's not making you money. So editing, I could edit all day every day. It's fun. I enjoy it. It's creative for a busy studio, ain't nobody got time for that. Right. So finding those things that we absolutely need to be involved with and then getting support for the things that we don't. So marketing, we don't have to lick every stamp and design every campaign and email and make every phone call and research every charity event or fly the plane that you drop flyers out.

Right, right, right. And I think a lot of people get hung up on hiring help and that they think, Oh, I'm going to have to hire someone full time. Well you can hire someone for like 30 hours a week. You know, you don't need to hire someone for a full part time, 20 hours a week or a full time job. You could even start off freelancing with outsourcing your editing to the different companies. I know I said my leash removals to evolve that at Belson cottage editing company and they do a fantastic job. I just sent him like, Hey, these leashes need to be removed. Gone done. Like I like to, because I still love to edit some things though. What I find works really well for me is I'll take my favorite image from the session that I want to put my hands on and I'll edit that. And then the others that need to be edited out the door, they go and you know, you look at it and you're, you get concerned, you're like, Oh my gosh,$75 an hour to do Photoshop edits. But they are professionals and they're so fast. I don't think I've ever paid more than an hour of work for like an entire big session with a ton of leash removals. So it's, you know, and it's worked into my cost of doing business because I would either be, you know, like it's my time that either I'm going to pay someone to do or I'm going to spend the time, like it's worked into my costs. So it just saves me a ton of ton of headache and stress and time to send that kind of stuff out. But I always encourage people to look at just even little things. It doesn't have to be something that you're committed to forever. It can be that freelance work. The gosh, there's so many opportunities now to hire people at uh, you know, people that are looking to have control of their own schedule that would love to have a job for just a couple hours a week or you know, maybe moms that are home with their kids that are looking for a little outlet of themselves to earn some money, you know, so

stays because there's lots of opportunities to market online. Although my uh, my, what I help people a lot is to get out of the house.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's still the golden rule.

At the same time, there are things we can put together. Like I just had an idea yesterday with one of my clients. She, she had a little idea and then as we talked we expanded it into this whole marketing campaign all online except for at the end there was some snail mail involved. So there are virtual assistants that can help us write the copy, design the campaign. If it's going to be something like a lead magnet to get you into your email, they can build that. They can set it all up. They can set up your mailing program, you can do auto, they can do the auto-responders, you can work with them together. Those people, a lot of them, you know, four hours a week with one client, even two hours a week per client. And they've got several people, they have a full time job. So yeah.

Yup. Yeah, no, that's fantastic. What are with the crazy isolation that we're going on right now, so we can't be out shooting. We can't really be out mingling with the others, with the other humanoids that are out there because we will infect each other. Um, but there's still things we can be doing in our business now. So how are you spending your time or how do you recommend people kind of spend this time? What types of marketing activities maybe can they start thinking about and start planning for when things start to turn away?

So, let's see. I'm going to say fourth, four and maybe there'll be more, but let's, let's keep me on track. Okay. Number one at all times, staying in touch with clients is a really strong way to continue to have a solid business. One of my, she's really my soul sister, both photography and just as a person, she has always been diligent about staying in touch with clients, calling them at least twice a year, uh, at least two to four times a month going to lunch or coffee with, with her favorite clients. Like she do get less than half of the new clients that I have. Um, like if I need to find 50 people because she's so diligent about this, she only needs to find let's say 20 new people cause she's mining the gold she already has. So while we have this time and people are home, it's a great time to get in touch with people and just not to market, not to pitch them anything, just to say. I'm just thinking of you, I'm really grateful that we've worked together. How is fluffy doing? Oh, you got a new, any new additions? Oh I love doxins and continue to build that trusted advisor relationship. So

really, yeah, it's just about reaching out and being human and checking on them and seeing how there are and you know, yeah.

So any downtime or like creating that habit in general is awesome. Essentially at downtimes like these, but also January 5th for some of us, you know, getting, so keeping really good records from the start, including addresses. I'm so surprised at how many people don't get full contact information and save it somewhere and use it. So using those sending at the very minimum a holiday card, I think at least quarterly postcards that are just just agreeing. Yeah. So that, that whole thing, the other, uh, like strategically to set myself up to have a good next year always is to research charity events. One of my main ways that I treat clients is to book a lot of charity events. And this is a great time to start finding them and not just ditching the ones that are like, Oh, it's an April and may, so I'm not going to contact them, but contacting them and saying, you know, if looking for auction items, either if you're gonna do your, your event online possibly, or if you can do it later in the year, you know, starting to build those relationships and get those bookings for September, October, November, December, and getting set up for next year. So creating a robust organized list and then calling. That's the other thing is there's a lot of phone phobic people out, but just so we used to spend like days on the phone.

One of my, one of my students in our elevate program, she is following up with some leads that she created during a marketing campaign that she did before all the shutdown stuff. So she's been following up on the phone and she's like, it's amazing how many people are actually answering the phone now because a their home and be, they're like missing human contact. So she's actually able to reach out with a lot of them. I'm so proud of her for actually doing that because so many of us are just like phone phobic, introvert. Um, but really, yeah, I actually find myself wanting to just pick up the phone and call businesses more now than trying to email because my email is so unwieldy that get so much of it that I don't want to like do an email contact form because I might miss the reply. So I want to just pick up a phone and talk to a business. So it's funny how our outlook starts to change and I'm like, Oh wait, my target client is also busy with work. Um, you know, they're a professional person that has a career, so they're busy as well. So, um, yeah, no, they might also enjoy a phone call more than trying to get back in emails.

So number three, and this is ongoing, so it's great. Now, and then if you're listening to this six months from now, a year from now, 20 years from now, it's still important. Oh by myself. So forgot. Um, so number three is to grow our list to grow. And this is the perfect time. So yesterday I already alluded to a cool idea that I did ask my client if I could share it cause it was a work product from our conversation and she said sure. Absolutely. So she has one of those print your own where you can print like four by six is a little machine. She was thinking about having a contest where people wanted so they could print their own. But that sparked an idea for me of, so let's say within the pet world, having a Facebook contest where people post up to three really great photographs that they've taken during this time. And then people vote on their favorites. And then you, the photographer will take your favorite from each client, do a little editing, print a four by six and send them and mail it to them with a cover letter, offering them some incentive to book book you for the future. And the prize can be like, I would do three prizes. So it's not just one, the prices are that they win a session. And then she also has a couple of alliances. So we were, cause she was like, Oh, I could also include that. And so if you have an Alliance with, you know, it could be a gift or certificate for the dog wash or uh, the free Leesha, the choice at puppies RS or something. So then there's cross-promotion because they're going to put it on their Facebook and, and you can add this and then that. And so they're going to share it because it's going to get votes in one with the most votes or the three with the most votes. So the growing her business is, there's that fine and find a way that they would get in our email. But also first now she's going to create a lead magnet of five tips for better to have, take better photographs at home. And so then she's going to do Facebook lives and emails and different things. So people get those five tips, they'll get in her email database. So that part she's grown her audience and she's grown her Facebook and she's going to post. Now one thing, if you're doing anything like this, you want to be sure you're only marketing to your community. I'm sure there's an Instagram opportunity in here somewhere. I'm only now dabbling. I just, my pod podcast just got its own Instagram. But I'm sure people that have big Instagram following it could either be at the same time or I dunno if you can boost an Instagram anyway, same as like Facebook. So not finding ways to, to grow the audience. That's the first thing. Growing exposure. And then for people that would like to receive a print, then getting, they get promotion so that come July, August, whenever you know, then they've got this thing. So thinking, being, thinking creative. Number four for um, mindset. I had someone say, well, I don't think this is a good time because people don't have any money right now. You can say that any day, any morning, middle of the night, no, people aren't going to, people can't afford it. Well, I don't know about Unical but 50 to a hundred great clients for me because my average is three to$10,000 I just need to find those people.

Exactly. And the people that usually are able to afford that are not often not as often in this particular case affected as much. Um, but I, I want like, I keep telling people too that even if the unemployment rate, like the unemployment rate is sky high compared to where it's been in the past, even if it were up to like an unheard of 25%, that's still 75% employed. Like that's still the vast majority of people and the people that are still employed. I know my household spending has decreased significantly because we're not going out to eat. I just canceled a ridiculous amount of travel. Like we're not doing anything. We're not doing any entertainment on the weekends. We are literally in the house and I'm buying groceries. That is

a townie.

Yeah. So there's like all this extra money that people are going to be to spend on something exciting when this is over.

I use the example for the person that mentioned that little true confession. I do, I do like turn on shopping channel every now and then. Um, because I, I enjoy, it's like, you know, hunters, they'd like to go out and hunt. Well, I, I don't, I don't like to spend a lot of money, but I enjoy the process and as I flip through, you know, boom, I wonder what's on the shopping channel. They're still sell outs of like there are these great shoes that I ordered a pair and they were perfect but they were half a size too big. And when I went to do a swap, the whole thing is sold out. So we're still don't want to spend some money. And so that kind of leads into number five, which is finding opportunities to have people pre purchase something and having a bonus for making that advanced commitment can a plane in a difficult times. But anytime, um, gift certificates buy a gift certificate two for one, one for one for the person you're gifting and then you get the equal value for yourself. And what I found when I've done that is the person that gifted to doesn't use it, but they do.

Yep. Yeah, that works really well. And you know, and there's so much messaging and marketing that we can be doing as pet photographers right now too about all the dogs right now have all their people at home. So people are going to be appreciating their dog, the relationship they have with their dog even more than in the past because they're not seeing anybody else. So it's a great way to be like, Hey, let's make some, create some beautiful memories of, you know, the, the furry friend that got you through warrantying, you know, there's just so many, so many things we can do some, you know, the first responder kind of appreciation offers for them. There's, there's so many things we can start to do with what's happening right now. But no matter when it is, you can always look at what's happening to at the moment and start to work that into your messaging a little bit. It's always

a good time to build alliances. Let's say it's a year from now and you've built a community of people in the pet industry and you put on an event where your photography is on display, the cookie dog, cookie Baker is there, the, you know, you can put on a half a day Saturday event that promotes everybody and you've all shared it to your list. So you're all maximizing and growing your lists. So just like your summit, Nicole, where you gathered a lot of teachers and we all shared the summit with our members and it was a win for all of us and for the people who got the opportunity to meet all of these different people that support our business growth or in photography, business growth. So this is, I mean I think this is a time when it would be easier to create those alliances because people are home. Yep.

They're, they're not busy and we can easily reach out to them with how can I help you, you know, how can, how, how can we work together, which is really how we should always reach out to our potential partners. I think another great Alliance right now too is looking for rescues or charities and making some, some plans, some marketing plans with them. It's one of my favorite marketing strategies in which, you know, I partner with a charity or a rescue and we offer sessions at a special, like a special offer just to their followers that then some of their purchase goes back or the session fee goes back to the charity, but then they still have a full session. So I get a great client out of it. Everyone that loves that charity. Now that Goodwill extends to my business, the charity makes money. It's all the charities. They're going to be down in their revenue a little bit too. So they're going to be looking for opportunities like this. So what a great way that we can, you know, the win, win, win, everybody wins in that sense.

And you can create an event right now where they purchase these certificates and then that gives us advanced, uh, clients potential. Something I haven't yet done but am considering is offering bonus money. If people prebook a session that whatever they put on deposit, um, they would double. So if they're, if they prepay$300, they'll have 600 to spend. Now you want to be priced so that you board goods. But what happens is money, you know this, this, everybody says this, but it's so true. Money spent money forgotten. So it's not that if someone was going to be a$2,000 client and they've got 3000 extra that they're going to only then spend 1700 they're going to on paper spend 2300 in my opinion, because people's financial comfort zone, if we're doing a great job in the sales area, I think there's still sort of a cap of a comfort zone. I don't know. Do you think that,

yeah. Well, I think that too, they come into the situation thinking, okay, for instance, I'm gonna, I'm comfortable spending about a thousand dollars on this, which is generally like what I try to say, Hey, you know, client spent at least a thousand dollars to like kind of weed out the lower end people, but not be too high to prevent people thinking like, Oh no, there's no way I'm gonna spend$3,000 on pictures of my dog. But then once they come in and we start talking about the wall art and the albums have the experience and produce the images and they've gone through this whole experience, well then they end up spending three thousand four thousand dollars because yeah, they just kind of fall in love with that, that process along the way. So yeah, I think like doing this bonus, you know, they think, Oh, I'm going to spend$1,000, I'll buy$500 now. And then, you know, they get that$500 bonus. But then once everything's done, they're like, Oh, well I'll spend another 2000

I think there's a, in that higher dollar, the person that would invest$5,000 with me, I think 6,000 might just be right out of their comfort zone. I kind of feel in my, that there is that sort of maximum edge that no matter what they're, what the, what they're going to get for it, that they're only going to invest up to a certain amount. Now it's always are you thinking like before they, all the way through, even all the way in, when you're in the sales process, they want those eight wall portraits and it's$10,000, uh, that there are people, it'd be like, yes. And then there's others would be like, I comfort zone 6,000 what I can invest. By the way, one reason I don't include frames because I want them to buy more art than I want to sell them frames later because once they've made that, yes, I know I did that with, I bought a a luxury bed. Um, and at the time it pushed my comfort zone and it's latex and they let you swap out different layers to find your ideal comfort zone. And when it came down to it to have what I wanted was another$500. It was like, sure, that's three that I invested was already gone. In my mind. It's that same kind of things. So the point of the story, the moral of this story is I think if someone gives you$500 on deposit, they have a thousand to spend there, you're not gonna earn$500 less at the end of the day. Right. Like I find when they've got money on deposit and I say, you know, 3,500 and they go and then I go, remember you have 500 paid already. And they go, huh. Right, right. It takes the sting out of it. So yeah, that's something that I think adding that opportunity at any level now when it's not money to get an advance, because right now in the world we're living in the flow of money, you know, people need bills to pay and so forth. And the flow is slow, but in the future, in normal times I do a step up thing. So if you prepay a thousand you get a 15 or 20% bonus. If you prepay 2,500 the most I would do is 25 or 30%. Um, but right now I think I do 50 or a hundred the initial. That's really awesome. This has been full of incredible ideas. I knew we'd have a good conversation. So, so happy you joined us. Is there anything you want to add or let us know where we can follow you if other people want to learn more about you and, and continue the conversation though. Lucy Dumas, coaching.com Lucy with an I is uh, where the profitable photographer and my podcast hangs out. Also you can find the profitable photographer with Lucy Dumas on iTunes or Stitcher, Potiphar, Spotify, and I love to offer anyone who's listening. So I would offer up to 10 complimentary strategy sessions, create the business of your dreams strategy sessions as a kid to thank you having on the show. Normally it's a$400 investment and you can email [email protected] or you can go to my website and click on that as well. And I do have a little online course that you'll find on my website, but I would love, love, love to connect and support you whether you're listening to this today. So the 10 is what I'm doing for the next six weeks. If you're listening to this later, I usually do have three or four sessions available every month. So feel free to contact me, um, to I space pass piece for that.

Perfect. And you guys can find all those links on our show notes page. If you go to hair of the dog academy.com/eleven just the number one one, that'll be the show notes for this particular show. So, um, and you can always find it, hair of the dog academy.com/podcast if you want to be more shownotes. But um, yeah, that is great. That's so generous of you, Lucy. Thank you so much. I know people will love that and I'm sure some of our audience will take advantage of that. Um, it's a great time to do so to get your business in order and start planning for profitability come out of this. Awesome. Oh yeah, we had so much fun. That's great. I love checking in with you to all your San Diego. So yes, San Diego is one of my most favorite places on the planet and it's one of those places where I feel like my soul had lived in another lifetime. I'm always like, I love it out here, but I'll ask East coast East coast traps. Yes. I'll come visit California all the time. Anyway, thank you so much. And um, yeah, and we'll follow up in the show notes and talk to you soon. Thanks for having, for being on the show and share and also to help me pick my own brain. I don't know. I know it's good. It's good to have these opportunities to sit down and be like, Oh, all right, well maybe I should get my thoughts together. My yearbook in high school, which I had no idea how much that would set me up for my future career.

You know a lot of layouts and cropping and designs and on the teacher page there is a poem, I don't know who wrote it, but it says each day I learn more than I teach. I'm sure you're finding that with how much you support photographers and every time I'm on a podcast or give a podcast or a coach or give a class, I learned so much,

so thanks for absolutely to learn from you. Of course, of course they came right back at ya. Had some great ideas, but yeah, so thanks so much for being with us and we'll see everybody soon. Bye guys.

Thanks for listening to this episode of hair of the dog podcast. If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to leave a review and while you're there don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes. One last thing, if you are ready to dive more resources, head over to our [email protected]. Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community.